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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]So you’re saying they only have anti ship ones? And you’re saying they can destroy everything if they wanted but it’s “expensive? Lol the logic is amazing. Wake up and realize we are caught up in another decades long war. [/quote]

“We” aren’t caught up in anything.
Ukraine is defending itself from a foreign invader.
I sleep great at night knowing which side I support. [/quote]

How was your sleep twenty years ago when we invaded Iraq? Did you sleep well then?

Maybe your sleep quality just isn’t a great indicator you think it is.[/quote]

No.  The war in Iraq was a scam and plenty of people know it and say it.  That is a dumb argument.[/quote]

It’s not true that plenty of people said it “at the time”. Mainstream media on both sides cheered it on, and there was never really any mea culpa about it. There isn’t now, either. [/quote]

Says you.   In any case.   Russia invaded Ukraine for some stupid reason and it was a mistake.  I would say the same for the war in Iraq.   Us made a big mistake [/quote]

Both are mistakes but the fallout was markedly different, don’t you think?[/quote]

Further enrich us defense contractors?  Seems similar.  Don't know why Russia and china want to do that but I am ignorant of these things.  Maybe someone gets a kickback or something?[/quote]

There were no consequences whatsoever to the American statesmen and war cheerleaders. And certainly not to average Americans. [/quote]

It was a boondoggle for defense contractors and they got a lot of our money.   Now they are getting a lot of money again.   Why Putin wants to make them even more rich and powerful is a mystery. He seems to be getting nothing at all.  It is hard to understand.[/quote]

You're deliberately avoiding the issue. The Iraq war was just as illegal and much, much bloodier than the one in Ukraine.  The amount of propaganda and lies the American state machinery has pumped into it was just as revolting.  Yet America the state was never held accountable for this criminal war in whatever passes for "international community".  There were no sanctions, no prosecutions, no warrants. Not even domestically! No one lost their jobs on account of pushing the nation into war.  Not a single journalist or government official had to hang their head in shame.  [/quote]

How am I avoiding any issue?  I don't understand the point of either conflict except as a way to enrich folks making guns and bombs and tanks etc.   That is who benefits as best I can figure out [/quote]

By refusing to acknowledge that Americans were never punished for the Iraq war - an enterprise just as criminal and much bloodier than the current invasion of Ukraine.  [/quote]

I am pissed off that my money got spent on that and that it was a con.  I did not lose any family members but many families did.    I don't know the exact calculation of who is punished more for the sins of their leaders ..the average American or the average Russian.  [/quote]

I also note that half a million dead Iraqis and an utterly destroyed country of Iraq do not figure in your deliberations one bit..[/quote]

It was a nice try.  0.5M is an imaginary number.

Iraqi civilian deaths: 182,272 — 204,575
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-many-people-have-been-killed-in-iraq-and-afghanistan#244124-266427-civilians-5

As far as deaths actually caused by US troops, there are documented incidents adding up to about a thousand, but the remainder were Iraqi-on-Iraqi deaths from Civil War, coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence and increased criminal violence.

"Our findings indicate that IED explosions contributed to 31% of civilian deaths, while direct fire contributed to 7% of civilian deaths. A comparison of how civilian deaths related to insurgent and allied intent shows that more civilians were killed by insurgents than by allied troops. Surprisingly, however, nonmilitary murder accounted for 49% of civilian deaths."
https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1067&context=jpur

What this means is that collateral damage by US forces could not exceed 18,277 to 20,457 - and this is the high water mark.  Although war deaths are always murky (did the bullet come from Army A or Army B?), one estimate is approximately 14,330 civilian deaths were attributable towards Coalition forces.

"According to Iraq Body Count, which has been keeping track of fatality reports since the onset of hostilities in 2003, of the approximately 119,400 documented civilian deaths between the beginning of the war and the US' withdrawal, 14,330 were a result of Coalition actions."
https://www.quora.com/How-many-Iraqi-civilians-did-the-U-S-Army-kill-in-the-Iraq-War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

Note that the 14,330 killed by "Coalition action" includes non-US troops.  The estimates I've seen about US troops killing civilians are by far (a) accidental / incidental death reports, and (b) are less than about 2,000.

Although 2,000 civilian deaths are admittedly unfortunate and not acceptable from the US military POV, it is certainly not the 0.5M that the poster (e.g. the lying sack of poo) falsely claimed.

It is understandable that internet searches will produce unverifiable articles with this false narrative.  Russian propaganda does try to push the narrative of the Iraq War as the US equivalent of Russia's Afghanistan, but it's not a very good analogy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHdpjqLER1c
https://russiaun.ru/en/news/pressconf_200323

"About two million Afghan civilians were killed."
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War

Although it's unclear the percentage of Afghan civilians killed by Russian soldiers vs Coalition forces, from the actions of Russian forces actively targeting Ukrainian civilians, it's far more plausible that the majority of civilian Afghan deaths were at the hands of Russian soldiers.

One additional point - after seeing the association between Tucker Carlson's Daily Caller staff and Cheney's office, given that the US-Iraq War was initiated by Republicans, I have to wonder if the pot could have been stirred by the pro-Russian / subversive crowd seeking to weaken the US?[/quote]

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