Reply to Antisemitism vs anticatholicism

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.[/quote]

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.[/quote]
No. We despise Zionism.[/quote]

Zionism is code for Jews.[/quote]

No, it's not. Zionism is the [i]minority[/i] of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy. 
[/quote]
Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.[/quote]

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to  exist.[/quote]

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel. [/quote]

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.[/quote]

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either. [/quote]

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.[/quote]

I’m confused. You’re totally okay with the 53 Muslim countries where Muslims are in power and treat other religions poorly, but you can’t understand why Jews want ONE country where they maintain power? Jews aren’t the colonizers of the Middle East. That doesn’t mean I am okay with this war, but I’m just confused how you cannot understand this.[/quote]

Where has anyone in this thread defended the discriminatory practices of majority Muslim nations?

You've given up on defending it on its merits- now your defense is that other countries do bad things, too? You don't see a problem with that?[/quote]

Nope the defense is that these counties are all doing normal things. [/quote]

Discrimination may be normal, but that's not justification.[/quote]

You are using the word discrimination, that is your pretext. [/quote]

You don't think treating people better or worse based on their religion or ethnicity is discrimination? Of course it is.

Was it OK when US immigration policy (and the administration of those policies) were clearly intended to limit Jewish immigration before WW2?

Just because it is common for countries to discriminate based on religion, race, ethnicity, or country of origin doesn't make it OK.[/quote]

I don't think discrimination is happening in Israel. I think the govt is seeking to protect the Jewish population from harm. You don't agree with this. But that's ok. I am not required to agree with Iranian/Palestinian talking points. Even if you call me names. Even if you start to use curse words. Even if you try to call down curses on my head (doesn't work, this is superstition). Even if you demand I feel shame. I think you are wrong. And, yes, even if you play into white guilt to convince the majority of Americans to side with you by claiming Jews are "white" and Palestinians are brown, yes, it is easy to get what you want when you are willing to deceive. It's easy to get what you want when you are willing to provoke at all times then hide your hands.[/quote]

I'll always remember the time I saw an Israeli and an Arab arguing with each other on TV.  The looked alike and they argued alike.  They could have been brothers.  Only their religion separated them.[/quote]

Yeah, I honestly wonder how many people arguing so vociferously here that Jews are "white oppressors" and Palestinians the "brown oppressed" have ever actually been to Israel or Palestine. I have been to both. If you plucked 50 Jews and 50 Palestinians walking down the street in Jerusalem, took all sartorial indicators of their religion away from them by dressing them in beige jumpsuits, and then told people to sort them out into their religious group, most people would have a really difficult time. [/quote]

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