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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24ryHuOLVmQ. From Haviv Rettig Gur. He is an Israeli journalist, but not a right-winger, and has been quite critical of the Israeli government and its actions in Gaza.

FWIW, I am very much NOT a Trump supporter and certainly do not believe his motives vis a vis Iran are pure. That said, I've never understood (and still don't) the position that everything America does in the Middle East is at Israel's behest or on Israel's behalf. Two seconds of scrutiny would reveal that to be ridiculous. The attack on Iran benefits Israel, yes - that is absolutely undeniable. But the US independently perceives it to be in the US's interests, for several reasons: (1) it threatens Chinese/Russian hegemonic ambitions, (2) it pushes Iran's Arab neighbors closer to the US, and (3) it weakens an American adversary and reduces the threat of a nuclear Iran. Whether the attack can/will actually achieve these aims (or whether these aims are worth achieving) is certainly up for debate. Personally, I'm skeptical, but also don't think the US is WORSE off for having eliminated Khamenei and damaged the power structure surrounding him. If the US gets bogged down in a ground war, that calculus changes obviously.

But seriously - why would America, the most powerful country in the world, act exclusively on behalf of Israel, a tiny, politically fractured nation of ten million people? Some nebulous "Israel lobby" that somehow pulls all the strings in US politics? That strikes me as conspiracy theory nonsense. Funds expended by AIPAC and other pro-Israel organizations are absolutely DWARFED by political spending by Arab nations. Take Qatar for instance. Since about 2017, Qatar has spent on the order of $225 – $256 million on registered lobbying, public relations, and related paid influence work. That's not including the billions (yes billions) of dollars it has given to U.S. universities and educational programs. And that's ONE country. The Middle East is full of oil-rich Arab/Muslim-majority countries who likewise spend billions on influencing U.S. politics.

If someone can explain this to me with actual sources (that aren't, like, Al Jazeera), I'd appreciate it because I am actually curious what animates this view other than bizarre monomania re: Israel. [/quote]

Respectfully this is all horse shit. The Saudis are furious right now that the US has left them for dead.Russia and china are not getting cut off at the knees at all. We need China more than they need US. The cheap goods we receive come from China, the strait of Hormuz. Trump did not bring back the manufacturing jobs that his fans believed  he would bring to the US.

There is no net benefit and it was not in the United States’ interest to fight Iran. If anything, Irans  was a stable presence that the US even relied on during the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. They are a  regime yes but so are alot of our allies in the Middle East. Destabilizing and toppling the government of stable nations does not mean a better one will come along. [/quote]

Your actual position is that the Saudis are upset we went after Iran, their #1 enemy in the region?? Bahaha ok. Re: Russia and China, no one is saying this is going to topple the Chinese government, but the goal (at least ostensibly) is to weaken their positions vis a vis the US. If you don't think China is aiming to become a global hegemon (or you do and you believe that would be a GOOD thing for the US), I sincerely don't know what to tell you. Also, this phrase alone completely disqualifies you to speak about the Middle East full stop: "Iran was a stable presence." Iran has been fomenting discord and violence throughout the region since 1979. They have exported terrorism to Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and beyond, and have killed scores of innocent people, including many Americans and 40,000 of THEIR OWN CITIZENS.  [/quote]

DP. Blah, blah blah, China, blah blah, Iran, blah, blah

We all know which country has destroyed Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, etc. It is Israel. The center of international terrorism and killing over 100,000 in Gaza alone.

Open the gates of your torture facilities, release all those you hold in your death camps and stop all crimes against humanity. Arrest those who have committed crimes against humanity. Then come back here and point your finger at others.[/quote]

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