Reply to Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]PS: I don't reject the alliance theory. All I'm saying it it's a theory, we don't know for sure. You should be comfortable admitting that, too, instead of stating it as if it were a fact.[/quote]

Fine, but you've been asked to give us credible alternative theories. Just one credible alternative theory will do.

In Aisha's case, if you want to go with "it's a guy thing and all the boys were doing it" then it would be harder to argue against than your silly contention that six-year-old understood the riches she'd enjoy later in life. But the "guy thing" theory doesn't reflect well on your prophet. I suggest you come up with something better.[/quote]
My prophet?

What makes you think I'm Muslim?

Your habit of assuming things about people to fit your stories?[/quote]

You're arguing with 3-4 people here.

Granted it's hard to tell who's who here. But there's definitely a poster on tonight doing Muslim apologetics. That's you, if you're the poster referring to "Muslims and their wives" and writing "who cares, she made out like a bandit" about Aisha. You're also assuming a stance towards women's roles and rights--again, the wives of Muslim philanthropists and scientists, as well as Aisha's rights--that most non-Muslims would be uncomfortable with. Or at least would know better than to post that here.

I'll play along and rephrase. "The 'guy' theory doesn't reflect well on Islam's prophet." Happy now? OK, how about finally rising to the challenge of offering better theories, instead of looking for new ways to pick pointless fights?

[/quote]
OK. You seem earnest. I'll give you an earnest answer.

The poster who decided I really mean "Muslim men philanthropists and scientists and their wives who are wholly separate from the men" when I clearly meant "the community of Muslims and its members who happen to be female" is really, really determined to find misogyny.  It's not worth my time to argue with her because she's totally convinced she knows what I meant. What that comment "really" meant was that the public perception of hijabs is driven by the perception of the Muslims en masse and not by the act of covering.  If the Muslim community "in general" was famous for great things, its female members would enjoy admiration and respect whatever they wear, and if their clothing readily identifies them as members of that community, then readily so. Right now, the Muslim community doesn't have a great reputation.  So its female members identifiable by their clothes fully share the burden of that not-so-great reputation of the community to which they belong.

As for the prophet and "better theories", I don't really know understand what your question is.
[/quote]

So I was the PP who jumped on you for the term "Muslims and their women."  In English that is a very peculiar way to say "the community of Muslims and its members who happen to be female" because the way to say that is simply "Muslims."  "Muslims and their women" is a sexist phrase in English.

I think perhaps (and note the perhaps before you start accusing me of putting words in your mouth) you were making a point that harkens back to your comment about nuns and their crazy get ups (or some other words along those lines you used to describe them).  Namely, that nuns in general are thought to be forces for good so those wearing a habit are generally viewed positively.  Thus, your argument is that if Muslims in general were viewed as being forces for good, then those wearing a hijab would be viewed positively.

That argument, however, is mistaken.  No women is forced to wear a habit or the veil often worn with it.  Women are free to enter a convent or not, she may rule out a convent that requires a veil or a habit that looks different from street clothes, and in any case the habit is a not a signifier of a woman who more  scrupulously follows the commands of God than other women but rather of the profession she has chosen to enter.

The fact that women are forced to wear the hijab in many places by the law or by their families usually on the premise that it protect "purity" meant in a sexual sense, that women wearing it believe in doing so they are obeying requirements set down by God, and that the rise of the hijab in various countries almost exactly tracks the erosion of women's rights in those countries causes the hijab to viewed negatively.

No matter how much esteem Muslims might gain for various accomplishments it will not cause non-Musims to embrace the hijab as a signifier of a member of that accomplished community.  It will remain viewed as a tool for restraining women.[/quote]

I went to a Catholic school in the 70s.  I remember four nuns who stood out.  Three were older; one was young.  The young one didn't wear any head covering.  She wore modest clothing - mostly skirts but sometimes pants.  She eventually left and got married.  lol

The other three were very traditional but only one wore a veil of sorts.  She, however, went batty, and they took her away to a "home."

my point is?   Even then the nuns could choose what to wear.  [/quote]

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