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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]We demand the truth from our spouses, our doctors, our employers, and the labels on our food.  But many PPs insist there is no objective truth for morality, right and wrong.  This seems to be more on volitional, rather than intellectual, grounds.  No reasonable alternative for objective truth about right and wrong has been offered yet.  But everyone here wants to say that at least one thing is wrong...killing an innocent child in cold blood, violent rape, cheating on a spouse...why is anything objectively, truly wrong?[/quote]

Again, you haven't got an argument here.  Just that you would really, really like for "truth" (which you haven't defined) to be "objective".  Therefore it is.  No idea what you're talking about when you say "this seems to be more volitional rather than intellectual".

[quote]Augustine said we love the truth when it enlightens us, but hate the truth when it convicts us.  That was my problem.  I chose not to accept the evidence presented to me because I did not want to have to submit to an ultimate, objective authority. That recalcitrance does not do away with the objective truth that an ultimate Authority exists.[/quote]

You've presented no evidence whatsoever.  Except your continued assertions that there's evidence.

More circularity:  a Christian god exists because truth is objective.  Truth is objective because Augustine said so.  Did I mention Augustine was really smart?

You say "truth" is objective.  I don't think you're clear on what "truth" is.

You argue that because truth is objective, there must be an "ultimate Authority".  That doesn't follow:  morality could very well be a biological imperative.  It could be instinctual.  Why isn't that more plausible?

You wave away evidence that morality differs from place to place and culture to culture.  You say that since there's an objective reality, any deviation from that objective reality must be an "error".  But you don't say why that has to be the case.  Should gays be stoned?  Should women be consigned to the home, and prevented from working?  Which is the obejctively moral position?  Who says so?  The "ultimate Authority".

Okay, so I don't believe your "ultimate Authority" exists, you've given no evidence that truth is objective, all you've done is point out that "everyone here wants to say at least one thing is wrong".  That is, individual humans have opinions on what is proper, and improper behavior.  That hardly seems a relevatory point to make.[/quote]

Hmmm..this post points to an inescapable problem with dialogue in this thread.  I have responded to so many different posters, on so many discrete points, that several of my arguments have been chopped up and lost along the way.  I have defined "objective," and "truth," and addressed the argument of morality as a biological imperative (which is logically flawed).  But that was a few pages ago, and I cannot piece everything together again.  That is why I want to point people to greater minds than mine, with their greater works of philosophy and logic.

But I never meant to solve the greatest question of humankind here.  I wanted to understand the reasons for a lack of faith.  I wanted to explore the many reasons I doubt my faith.  And I wanted to make one point:  these are essential conversations to have.  So many atheists here said they just did not see a need to think about whether or not there is a God.  And they said I had psychological problems because I do see a need.  That's OK--that's what I used to think.  And maybe I am a freak of nature, that I go around thinking deep thoughts all the time.  But I still say these questions are, in fact, essential.

No one has been able to say there is objective truth of right and wrong without God.  And yes, I really want objective truth about right and wrong to be real.  Did I, along with most of my fellow humanity, dream up an Absolute Authority to fulfill that need?  Possibly.[/quote]

Hold your horses there:   no one has been able to say there is an objective truth of right or wrong *with* God.  You've claimed that you really, really want it to be so.  That's not the same thing.  The topic of the thread is "Why don't you believe in God?"  The response has been, overwhelmingly, "Because he doesn't exist."  Rephrased, you have dreamt up an absolute authority to fulfill that need.

[quote]But using our reason, we can find plenty of evidence that there is a Creator, a First Mover, evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.[/quote]

You keep saying this, but one would think that were there "plenty of evidence that there is a Creator" that you'd state it.  Sorry, that evidence is just not there.  Or maybe I missed that too.  If so, any chance you could just enumerate the 2-3 pieces of evidence which establish "beyond a reasonable doubt" the existence of this Creator? [/quote]

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