Reply to Discussion over whether to expand Tyler dual-lang program turns to gentrification debate

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language.  The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either.  Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding  all the facts.[/quote]

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs. [/quote]

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.[/quote]

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.[/quote]

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

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NP. I went and read several of the studies around dual immersion when I was considering education options for my kids. PPs statement about the 50 studies and what they supposedly show wildly exaggerates the available literature. I decided against immersion, incidentally.[/quote]

I also studied about immersion, and was raised bilingually. I’m happy we have had the opportunity to also raise our children in a multi-lingual household, and they attend an immersion school.  I’m not saying immersion is for everyone, but it has been outstanding for us. I believe in the science behind immersion, and am happy we have the chance to send our kids to such a school. [/quote]

Are you a native speaker of the language that your children are learning?

When you say you "believe the science," what do you mean? Have you read the actual studies about second languages and immersion?[/quote]

I am a native speaker.

I believe in science and I informed myself, which I suggest you do as well.

What I do not understand is magical thinking. I work EXTREMELY hard outside of school to supplement my children’s education in both of their languages. We travel to Spanish speaking countries. We ensure they’re doing excellently in all core subjects. I don’t care what school they attend (and they attend an amazing immersion school), any child can slip through the cracks.

So while I find it laughable that idiots on here think learning a foreign language hurts your math skills or whatever (hysterical and Par for the course in these  xenophobic times), I also find it hysterical when parents drop off a elementary age kid with zero or minimal background at an immersion school and expect magic. [/quote]

As I mentioned in my original post, I did in fact search out and read the science on immersion programs. I am not sure why you felt it necessary to ignore that part of my post (defensive?). What I found first and foremost was a lot of shoddy studies. This is social science, not known for academic rigor, but the dual immersion studies are pretty bad even among that cohort. I think to be honest there's a lot of magical thinking going on among immersion proponents. There's not, for instance, what PP claimed supports immersion ("at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first"), particularly if you exclude studies with bad statistical analysis.

Also I am not heritage dad or some of the other posters on here. I don't even know who heritage dad is. I am just somebody who evaluated immersion for my kids based on an evaluation of the research out there, and found that it was mostly quite weak and far less compelling than some of the proponents of immersion would have you believe.[/quote]

No you chose to not believe the science behind immersion. That’s fine. Good for you.

I actually applaud people who don’t just go for the most desirable schools out there. I can’t tell you how many times people have told me their first or second grader will “do just fine” at the immersion school without speaking any of the language. I just know what I read, the research I did, and what I see with my own and other children. I think you somehow expect me to link every article and study I read to prove your point wrong- but you’ve simply chosen to say what you saw “is weak”. Feel free to say what you want to say to justify your own choices. But I know what I read and the studies say what they say. You can choose to believe what you want. [/quote]

NP. I think the PP doesn't expect you to link to studies to prove someone's point wrong, she just expects you not to insult people as xenophobic "idiots", and call it laughable when others express concerns about the potential downsides of immersion or don't agree that the research is as strong as you think it is. Your gratuitous rudeness and condescension come across as either defensive or arrogant, or both. (And for the record, I'm multilingual and an immigrant, so definitely no xenophobe or opposed to language immersion.)[/quote]

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