Reply to Google male engineeer saying female engineers shouldn't be engineers

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]

1) the presumption that hiring the highest IQs available, as opposed to also looking at other factors, is the only consideration in hiring a competent workforce;
2) the presumption that IQ tests are accurate measures of ability, and that the gap is inevitable
3) the presumption that we have a "free society" where people are choosing professions with no reference at all to background social/economic conditions
4) the presumption that all coders are and must be "elite"
5) the presumption that the work of Google engineers is to "solve the hardest puzzles," as opposed to being good engineers 
6) the presumption that success as an engineer in the real world does not require verbal intelligence 
7) the presumption that women leave stem because they are inferior women, not because they are discriminated against
8) the presumption that "the work that drives society forward" is equivalent to an IQ test (probably the dumbest presumption of them all)
[/quote]

[quote]I think you're inserting quite a few biases/presumptions of your own there rather than what was explicitly written, but I would be happy to respond after taking care of dinner, later this evening.  Virtually none of what you wrote appears in my text.[/quote]

[quote]I don't really need to hear any of your blathering anymore. thanks. you might just take to heart that your supposedly high IQ doesn't actually mean you know everything or always have the right argument.[/quote]

I don't recall ever stating my IQ. I did say that there is a point of diminishing returns about IQ though.

Lets discuss your presumptions:

1) the presumption that hiring the highest IQs available, as opposed to also looking at other factors, is the only consideration in hiring a competent workforce;

I have never stated that this is the only consideration.  I have stated that there is an IQ threshold to complete a STEM related degree.  I have stated that there is a larger pool of men than women with higher IQs to draw upon for these programs and for those who have completed the programs. Please don't insert words into my mouth. :)

As you are presumably aware ;) it is illegal to test for IQ as part of the hiring process (Griggs v Duke Power Co, 401 US 42).   College degrees became a proxy for this in part.  Furthermore, Google and other software companies have a pretty intense hiring process. Asides from standard interviews and technical interviews, they have a logical reasoning interview, where not only are you graded on your response time to the questions, but your logical reasoning ability (legal by the way per the previously cited decision because its considered a relevant factor to the job whereas general IQ is not). Google has a huge number of applicants and is highly selective for elite applicants.

2) the presumption that IQ tests are accurate measures of ability, and that the gap is inevitable

There is a strong correlation between IQ and educational outcomes, in part because most IQ tests measure a number of things short-term memory, analytical thinking, mathematical ability and spatial recognition. There is a  correlation between spatial intelligence and success in STEM coursework. Studies have shown that women can improve spatial intelligence and achieve better results in STEM programs, but men who went through the same training also appeared to improve at a greater rate. As I pointed to earlier, this is one of the few areas for intelligence differences where there is agreement, likewise the development of this one of the few portions of the male brain that is different from the female brain. IQ is certianly not the only element required for success, but I would hesitate to neglect the potential expressed in what it measures.

I would certainly agree that when it comes to nobel prizes in the sciences, it is relatively rare to see exceptionally high measured IQs.

3) the presumption that we have a "free society" where people are choosing professions with no reference at all to background social/economic conditions

The US lacks a caste system. Anyone is free to choose their major in college. This is not the People's Republic of China where you must test into a specific major (a student's performance on the "gaokao" which decides what university and major a high school graduate can pursue). The registrar won't prohibit someone from choosing to study philosophy or marine biology. While I would agree that due to assortative mating patterns, or certain cultural pressures, some kids may be highly encouraged to select certain majors in college.  Women have agency, this isn't the third world where a male relative chooses their life for them.

4) the presumption that all coders are and must be "elite"

I did not say that. Programmers at google could be considered elite since Google is highly selective. Their hiring practices are well documented online. While coders can be dismissed as "code monkeys" Google is more known for algorithim development/applications than enterprise applications.

5) the presumption that the work of Google engineers is to "solve the hardest puzzles," as opposed to being good engineers

Google/Alphabet spans a number of subjects, mostly concerntrated on software.  Some of these hardest puzzles have eluded engineers since the dawn of the information age. This includes Artificial Intelligence, particularly applied to machine learning, machine vision (their self driving car work),  accurate heuristics models etc.. They're there to solve difficult problems that require being a good engineer.  They're probably closer to the old Bell Labs model than most other companies out there today.

I'm curious why you wouldn't assume they're working on the hardest puzzles, in the software related fields?

6) the presumption that success as an engineer in the real world does not require verbal intelligence

Please show me where I stated that. You need high mathematical ability to solve engineering problems. High verbal ability is useful for conveying those solutions to others or for collaboration (best engineers have both).  Having high verbal ability, but lacking high mathematical ability will make success in engineering very challenging.

7) the presumption that women leave stem because they are inferior women, not because they are discriminated against

Please show me where I stated that.  I stated that there are proportionally fewer women with higher IQs than males which gets into rather large skews at higher measured IQ scores and that men tend to have higher spatial intelligence, which is not inconsequential to some STEM coursework.

Women do tend to favor more work life balance than men.  Male dominated work environments are different than female dominated work environments. There are cultural differences in terms of how groups of men treat each other and how women treat each other, though explicit discrimination in this day and age is much different than 40-50 years ago. Discrimination is not the only possible reason why women would leave STEMland.

Female labour force participation is lower than that of men, and the rate certainly drops once children come into the picture as society expects women to take on more of the childcare role than men.

8) the presumption that "the work that drives society forward" is equivalent to an IQ test (probably the dumbest presumption of them all)

Please show me where I stated that.  Technology has been a driver that has allowed for female independence from the home and child-rearing, that has enabled social progress on a level not seen before. In otherwords, without increases in technology, productivity in myraid areas ranging from the agrictulure, energy extraction, biochemistry and the like has brought an unparalleled bounty of resources enabling us to have the peaceful, prosperous and liberal representative democracty we all enjoy today with a standard of living far beyond that of the royalty of yesteryear.[/quote]

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