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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Can we say that whatever belief system or nonbelief system that leads people to try and be better people ( in all of those abstract ways of kindness, charity, respect]  is of value?

Can the believer look at an atheist and say, you're trying to live your life according to a value system and so am I, and leave it at that?

Can the atheist look at the believer and say, I don't agree with you but there is good intent, and leave it at that?

It seems to me that if we accept that other men and women are whole people, different in some ways but often similar, that we can move closer to acceptance and civility.[/quote]

If people come to feel that way about others, fine, but there is usually more to it than that.  Some believers really feel and are taught by their faith that they have an obligation to save people's souls.  In some cases their faith teaching them that people of other faiths or no faith are acutely less moral than they are and are a danger to society. No statistics or scientific evidence to the contrary will convince them otherwise, because their faith teaches them something different.

Some atheists strongly feel that teaching supernatural beliefs to children is harmful and that perpetuating the idea that such beliefs are valuable is harmful to society.

Also please consider that the basic "value system" of atheists and many varieties of religious believers is very much the same about most issues - (honesty, morality,compassion, etc) The differences come in the unsubstantiated beliefs (miracles, claims of divinity, power of prayer, etc) and the sometimes conflicting beliefs (my son of God is your prophet, who is someone else's Jewish carpenter and yet other person's myth based on earlier myths)[/quote]

I'll give you that it was a very simplistic idea I put out there, but it makes a good starting point.

I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else. But we can still talk about my belief in God without being told I'm mistaken out of hand. And an atheist can tell me why they side with science over theology and I don't need to debate him/her. A statement of belief can stand on its own.[/quote]

What does it matter to you if some people think your beliefs are mistaken?  In fact you already know that (and think it about some other people's beliefs) so what's the point of not acknowledging it.  It makes me wonder if your beliefs are so fragile that hearing about others beliefs shakes your beliefs. Or maybe it's just a social convention that you've become accustomed to and don't want to change.

Can you give an example what what you'd like to say about your beliefs and what responses are acceptable and not acceptable?

If you say you love something (whatever -  skiing, broccoli, jazz) and someone her or irl  says they hate it, is that person out of line?[/quote]

I'm not trying to change minds here. I'm saying we all can declare our positions without an immediate counter from the opposite side. You can be against my religion, you can hate my religion, you can hate me because of my religion. It isn't going to shake my faith or make me hate you.

I can hear you. I want to hear you when you tell me about your beliefs. I want to think about the things you say and get a better feel for them and for you. At the least, shouldn't I be given a chance to describe where I'm coming from without the immediate posts about how I'm mistaken? I already know you think I'm mistaken. That's clear. But we never move forward when the dialogue is shut down by sniping.
[/quote]

For most atheists, their "beliefs" are very simple -- they don't believe in god.  Other than that, they have all the same sorts of beliefs about things that other people have.  They do not believe in the supernatural.

While I might not know exactly where YOU are coming from, many atheists, having once been religious themselves, know a lot about where religious people are coming from and don't want or need to hear  about it in depth.  Even atheists who were raised without religion, live in a society permeated by religion so know more about it the religious people know about atheism.  Plus many religions say false things about atheists -- no morals, etc, so religious people can have a false and negative impression of atheists.[/quote]

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