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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]There’s not a lot of upside to be found in this conflict for civilized people, but the silver lining for me is witnessing the culture of lies surrounding Israel and the radical, extremist Zionists who have rammed hasbara propaganda down our throats for over 75 years now … just crumbling, crumbling down.

No nation has a “right” to exist.

Israel can choose to embrace major reform as part of broader regional reform, or it can slowly wither like every other nation that has come before. Most of the world is rooting for the latter. But it’s not too late.[/quote]

You've just completely undermined your argument. If that's the case, then there is no right of the Palestinians to lay claim to Israel.

Israel is in no way withering in the face of invasion by people who want nothing less than its destruction. To the contrary, it has defanged Hamas and Hezbollah. Iran knows it's next if it pulls another mass drone/missile attack. Trump knows this too and will provide defensive coverage while Israel takes out the trash. Also, Iran's oil customers (i.e. China) know that Israel will target its oil production capacity, and are keeping Iran from doing anything dumb.  No Iranian oil will cripple their economies. [/quote]

The problem with this argument is Israel is only doing that with massive U.S. support.  Should that wain they are in dessert surrounded by nations that don’t really like them.. [/quote]

It won't wane. Israel has technology and intelligence capabilities unmatched in the Middle East, and quite frankly, in most of the world. Too many countries have vested interest in Israel's survival.

Oh, and for the record, it's 8-0 in favor of Israel. FAFO. [/quote]

Can’t even walk and chew gum at the same time without Uncle Sam wiping your ass, but ACTUALLY Israel is so formidable! So formidable that the Hamas ranks have apparently increased over the past 20 months.

Face it: Israel is reliant on the U.S. to cash the checks it keeps writing with its big mouth in the region.[/quote]

The US didn't play a part in all of the 8-0 wars. Face it, Israel isn't going anywhere. The current conflict is costing the Gaza Palestinians an entire generation of young men.[/quote]

Actually, we did. The U.S., France, and Great Britain have bailed Israel out over and over again, since inception.

As for your next point of confusion, I won’t celebrate or hope for Israel to “go anywhere”. That’s never been something I would hope to see. Rather, I want Israel to undergo major reform and become a member of the global community that isn’t held in contempt by 185 countries and nearly 8B people.[/quote]

DP Israel is the biggest threat to this country and fully supports Trump. The quicker Israel goes away the better. Israel is totally dependent on the US for its existence. The US has abandoned every real allies and NATO under Trump. The US will pull the plug on its expensive pet very soon and demand repayment of all aid.

Oh and another little thing. US weapons and weapon systems are about to get really expensive. The F-35 is going from 100 million per to north of 350 million because the European and Asian countries are pulling out of cost sharing. Israel has no idea what is coming.[/quote]

+100

When you have no support on the world stage, it's time to take a look in the mirror. And no, it's not because of anti-Semitism. Israel is far deep into its isolationism policy, except for it's nursing at the teet of American taxayers. More and more Americans are getting angry at this. It can't last forever. Israel's eventual demise will be from its own internal policies. Ethno-nationalist states don't survive the test of time.

[/quote]

So, to summarize:

Nobody likes Israel.  Netanyahu is a secret Hamas supporter.  The U.S. and Israel are allies.  Only the last item is actually factual, of course.

Here are additional facts, rather than baseless propaganda claims:  The Gazans have accomplished zilch in 77 years to build themselves a civil society.  Their government is corrupt.  They have accepted billions in foreign aid, and used it to build up a covert military structure instead of to bring themselves out of poverty.  They remain a welfare-based society after 77 years.  They are allies and clients with Iran, which uses them as a proxy for indirect attacks on Israel.  They could have had their own country in 1948, but didn't want the Jews to have one, too, so refused the opportunity.  They have decisively lost every conflict they started with Israel, losing land and lives every time.  They attacked civilians on Oct 7, murdering, raping, and kidnapping, to try to achieve something.  It appears that their brilliant strategic political and military goal goal was to lose at least 50K Palestinian lives, and counting, and to achieve the obliteration of the land on which they had been living.  They are surprised and shocked that Israel responded forcefully.  Hostages are still being held.  Palestinians, including their single DCUM supporter posing as multiple people but making the same grammatical and other linguistic errors each time, are still befuddled that Israel hasn't just given up on military action to recover them.

Now for some speculation:  Hamas intransigence is leading inevitably to the occupation of Gaza and to the permanent loss of part or all of that territory.

The status quo is apparently satisfactory, because there is a resounding silence when it comes to calls for Hamas to release the hostages and surrender.  Do nothing different, get no different results.  Keep attacking Israel, keep getting the same results.

Release the hostages, surrender, or become a footnote in history.  [/quote]

An abundance of idiotic rambling, to be sure, but the part that makes me laugh the most is the ongoing obsession with trying to convince others that there’s a lone individual posting objections to the policies and actions of Israel.[/quote]

Because you can't rebut any of it?

And have nothing to add to the conversation beyond "I don't like Israel!"?

No pragmatic, realistic, practical ideas at all for how the Palestinians can improve their situation?  After all, 77 years of terror, diversion of foreign aid, contentment with a welfare-based society, and Iranian support have worked so well so far to build a vibrant society with a democratic government, a functional economy, coexisting peacefully with its neighbors?

Here's an idea you can adopt: Hamas stops hiding among noncombatants, forcing the the Palestinians to become collateral damage along with Hamas targets.

Here's an even better idea, which you can adopt as your own if you really want to advocate for positive change in the region:  Call for Hamas to release the hostages and to surrender.

[/quote]

“Hamas, CAN YOU HEAR ME?! Release the hostages and surrender! NOW!!!”

I’ver never once expressed a thought contrary to the above, but now that we have that out of the way and you’re satisfied that I’ve OFFICIALLY adopted your “better idea”, don’t come back around here with the demonstrably false claim that criticisms here are one-sided.

As for ideas, how about Israel follow basic international law and remove any presence of its state from Lebanon, Syria (including the Golan), and the West Bank? Let’s start there. You know, at the point demanded of Israel for years by literally every nation in the world other than the U.S. and a few micro-states under effective U.S. dominion.

As for Gaza, if Israel would agree to the above (which it won’t willingly for the basic reason I’ll set forth below), international peacekeepers would be the solution to rooting out militancy and keeping Israelis and Palestinians safe.

Now, everyone understands that you’ll come back with some bullshit excuses or diversions to avoid accountability. But I’ll hardly be surprised - after all, you believe that Israel is ENTITLED to operate under a different set of rules, far more favorable rules, than every other nation. And that is and has been the crux of the entire problem, since 1948.[/quote]

DP.  When your country attacks Israel, whether directly or through terrorist groups that seemingly control its foreign policy, you should not be surprised if there are Israeli troops at your doorstep and in your streets - to keep you from doing it again.  This has been the case throughout thousands of years of human history.  Stop attacking Israel and it won't invade your country to stop further attacks.  It's that simple.

Oh, and for the record.  The U.S. stayed in Afghanistan for 20+ years after 2001.  It stayed in Iraq almost as long.  Also for the record, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.  What did the Palestinians do?  They elected Hamas who rearmed and renewed attacks on Israel.[/quote]

DP ^^^ entry-level hasbara bleating, while the rest of the world is wise to Israel’s “provoke repeatedly until eliciting a response, then use that eventual response to justify the initiating provocations and resultant state-sponsored terror and occupation” …

Guy, 95%+ of the planet doesn’t believe a word you say, from the instant you open your mouth. You did that. And now, you radical, extremist Zionists are looking quite fizzucked … if you don’t find a way to kill at a much, much, much higher rate, the demographical tidal wave headed your way is probably going to show zero mercy …[/quote]

You don't get it.  Israel hasn't cared what the rest of the world thinks since 1948.  Israel takes care of its own.  Sometimes it takes years (Google Operation Wrath of G-d), but it happens eventually.  Even the nations around Israel have recognized that it's not going anywhere, and that it's better to make peace with Israel (Abraham Accords).  If that weren't the case, then Israel wouldn't exist - but it does.  Only Iran doesn't seem to realize this yet, but it's finding out rather quickly.[/quote]

That’s quite a reckless imagination you have!

As an American. I’m not even certain my country will be intact 25, 10, or even 5 years from now.

But the parasite subsisting on my country’s unconditional welfare IS certain of their own fate, forever?

OK, then …[/quote]

If you believe that, then there's no hope for you.

As for Israel, it has been the birthplace of many inventions you take for granted, such as RSA encryption, the 8088 Intel processor, instant messaging, cybersecurity firewalls, VoIP, USB drives, Waze, self-driving cars, ... and of course, your EpiLady.  Feel free to give all of those things up (and their technological successors) if you hate Israel so much.[/quote]

Hate is off the mark. Contempt for policies and actions? Yeah, guilty as charged there.

By the way, that list - notwithstanding its inaccuracy, is paltry and embarrassing. Cannot imagine a country with less to show, especially since the U.S. looks the other way when Israel uses American IP to “invent”.[/quote]

It was just a small sample. As for stolen IP,  the US stole the entire German rocket program in the wake of WWII. Feel free to stop using satellite communications, including GPS, if that's your measure of value.[/quote]

Let’s say I’m Greek and we can dispense with the pissing contest and you can just skulk away with a tiny scorch of shame.[/quote]

Didn't the Greek PM just last month stress ‘critically important’ defense cooperation with Israel
Kyriakos Mitsotakis also called for ‘immediate and unconditional release’ of the hostages.  Greece is in talks with Israel to buy advanced artillery systems and to purchase an Iron Dome-like missile defense system.[/quote]

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