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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]"Are more women finally making the connection between the beauty industries emphasis on anti-aging products and the pedophilic nature of patriarchy? has it finally hit you that your obsession with not looking "old" caters to the predatory male gaze?"

Agree or disagree?[/quote]

I have only skimmed the responses so I apologize if I missed something. The level of discussion on womens issues on a womens forum continues to be disappointing.

The entire concept of “beauty” is rooted around two primary principles 1) health and 2) fertility.

The emphasis on anti-aging measures is to simulate women appearing in their most fertile years. I forget the age range but it is VERY young by our modern standards definitely partially underage although NOT pre-pubescent.

But yes, I do agree with your point that beauty/anti-aging efforts are an attempt to appeal to male desire. There is a health element to it (staying fit and disease free) which I believe can be separated from the male gaze.

Rant over.

PS shaving privates is a modern offshoot of catering to the male gaze by emulating p0rn.

PPS the purpose of make up is either to improve appearance of health / fertility / youth OR simulate the appearance of biological sexual arousal.

[/quote]

Agree with this and hard concur on the comment about the low level of discourse here.

I will expand and say that it's absolutely possible for women to CHOOSE to groom or decorate themselves in a way consistent with the male gaze and still be empowered. Wearing makeup, waxing, etc. does not mean you're a victim or that your choices are not your own.

However, refusing to acknowledge or understand where these ideals come from, or the ways that many women do NOT choose these things but have them imposed, is both ignorant and childish. You can own your own choices while also acknowledging that some of what you do has patriarchal origins. See also: courting and marriage rituals, most of which stem from traditions in which girls and women were chattel goods sold to their husbands by their fathers. Does that mean if you get married, you're not a feminist? No, of course not. But it would be worthwhile to learn about that history, especially in light of a conversation about, for instance, spousal abuse.

That's the point here. No one cares if you wear mascara or wax your bikini line. It's not a commentary on your personal choice. But right now there is a conversation happening about the abuse and exploitation of girls and very young women by a bunch of very powerful people. Pretending like those people's exploitation of children, immigrant women, service workers, etc. is totally unrelated from certain beauty and grooming standards because you don't want to think about it is cowardly. You should think about it.

The defensiveness on this thread is disappointing because there's no reason for it.  Let me show you:

I do periodically wax and trim my bikini area. I'm in my 40s and divorced and not having sex right now, so I'm not doing it for any man. And yes, 100%, I do it because it feels better for me, it makes it easier when I want to wear a bathing suit, etc. All valid and practical concerns. But it also makes me feel sexier, and I notice that too. Again, even though I'm not having sex and don't really feel like having sex right now. And I do think that has something to do with my own exposure to grooming standards for women.

I was in my 20s in the 00s. I remember influences like Sex & the City (where they portrayed a very high maintenance version of female sexuality -- waxing, very high heels, tan, thin, blonde highlights, hair straightening, etc.). I also remember the rise of the Brazilian as a think American women got, influenced in part by the embrace of Brazilian supermodels like Gisele, Adriana Limia, and Alessandra Ambrosio, all of whom featured heavily in Victoria's Secret campaigns and Sports Illustrated swimsuit issues of that era, wearing the sorts of swimsuits and underwear that absolutely required complete removal of everything. And these were the images I remember from when I was like 22 and really dating in a meaningful way for the first time.

I also think of the conversations I had with friends at that time. About grooming, including waxing, and about relationships. I remember hearing friends call pubic hair "gross" and "offensive", make jokes about women who didn't wax or at least shave, and obsess over skimpy bikinis. I remember going to salons with friends to all get our nails done and upper lips waxed. I also remember talking about sex and who did what, and I specifically remember a general attitude among my friends and I that you *had* to do certain things in order to be appealing to men. Not a specific man but just men in general. Like if you didn't groom in a specific way, and didn't do certain sex acts, then you would be alone. Not just alone, but like, rejected. Also it wasn't enough to do this stuff, getting everything waxed and doing whatever men wanted in bed. You had to love it. You were supposed to be enthusiastic. Because that absolved everybody involved of thinking that any of this wasn't feminist, because it was the 21st century, of course we were all feminist! We were just hairless, tan, sexy feminists wearing 4 inch heels and talking about how much we loooooved giving head. Because we were empowered.

Does any of this mean I shouldn't get a wax if I want one? Nope, it's my body, I do what I want. Do I think about this stuff, especially when I read about things in the Epstein files that were happening around the same time that my friends and I were embracing our feminism by subscribing to what I now think of as an extremely degrading, disempowered, sad existence that was almost entirely about pleasing men and had almost NOTHING to do with our own personal agency or pleasure. YES. You can do both.[/quote]

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