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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]What makes denying a gay couple a cake a legitimate religious issue?

Where exactly in the Bible does it say thou shalt turn away people whom you do not agree with?

More specifically, where did Jesus teach anything even remotely like this?

I can't seem to find it anywhere.  Certainly not in the Gospels which are the first hand testimony of Christ's teachings.  Anyone?  Anyone?  Citation, please?

If you can't come up with one then it's not really a bonafide religious issue.  So please stop trying to wrap your homophobic bigotry up in religion thinking it can act as a shield.  If even Jesus isn't backing you up on this then you are full of crap.[/quote]

The bible states that marriage is between a man and a woman. A baker, who bakes a wedding cake for a gay couple means that baker is participating in the wedding. This is VERY different than a gay couple simply coming in to buy cookies, or any other baked goods already on the shelf - including a cake. Forcing someone to participate in something that is against their religious beliefs is what this law is about. It does not give shop owners permission to shout 'you're gay, get out".

Should a Halal shop owner be forced to participate in a Jewish wedding? I don't think so.[/quote]

"Participating in the wedding?"  Oh, please.  By that calculus, the chinese factory that made the lace for the veil is also "participating in the wedding"

But you still didn't answer the question.  Where exactly in the Bible does it say the baker cannot do business with them?  And, since we are talking about Christians here, where, specifically, in the Gospels does it say that?[/quote]

If the veil is special-ordered or custom made, you are talking about shop owner participation. Off the shelf?  Nope[/quote]

Huh.  My Bible doesn't seem to have that clause.  Did yours come with some kind of special Appendix of random new rules for what does and doesn't constitute "participation?"[/quote]

Your bible has the 'marriage is between a man and a woman' line, and talks extensively of marriage.

You're aware that in your attempt to protect the rights of your chosen group, you are trampling on the rights of another group, right? Is that OK? Why is your chosen group more important and/or more worthy that another? [/quote]

You mean the "right" to be a baker?  Or a florist?[/quote]

Should a Halal food establishment be required to cater a Jewish wedding?  Can the Jew sue the Muslims if they refuse? [/quote]

Yes, and yes.[/quote]

PP -- hit post too soon, sorry.  If the Jewish couple wants the catering services the Halal establishment provides, no, the Halal establishment should not be permitted to refuse service to the Jewish couple just because they are Jews.  If they do, the Jewish couple should be permitted to sue.[/quote]

Why are the Jew's rights more important that the Muslim's rights? [/quote]

How does it violate anyone's rights to simply go about whatever their work is?

If the Jewish couple had ordered food from the Halal establishment, and not told them what it was for, would anyone's rights have been violated? If the employees of the food establishment later found out that their food was used at someone else's wedding, would this truly have violated their religion? They are not involved, they simply sell the food that people can use however they end up using it.

Should I have to verify with everyone at local bakery that they are not Jehovah's Witnesses before I can purchase a cake intended for a birthday party? If so, then maybe this law makes sense. If, however, you believe, as I do, that what happens to the cake once it's purchased is neither the business nor the responsibility of the people at the bakery, then this idea seems ridiculous. Shop owners sell things, customers buy things, then customers decide how to use the things. I fail to see why it is the shop owner's right or moral responsibility to make sure items purchased from them are used only in ways they approve of.

As another example, I used to work retail (think mall store). At times customers would come in who very obviously held beliefs I strongly disagreed with (racists, a guy with a T-shirt that had a slogan that seemed vaguely anti-Islam, a lady with a pamphlet from an extremely radical and hateful Christian church in the next town over from where I lived at the time). I happen to be a Christian from a very liberal faith tradition that holds as most important respecting the inherent dignity of everyone and upholding the love that I believe the God I believe in shows for humanity by not judging and by trying to treat everyone well and by working to achieve social justice in our society. The customers I just described were definitely not living up to the way my religious tradition would demand I uphold its standards, and yes, being around people with those views made me feel a bit personally uncomfortable. But I still didn't get to refuse them service, and I agree with that. My standards are not the standards that they have chosen to agree to uphold, and I have no right to hold others to my personal standards in order to conduct whatever unrelated service I am employed to provide. I was selling shirts, so I sold those people shirts. If they choose to wear their shirts while engaging in something I would personally find objectionable to participate in, like a racist protest or something, that is none of my business and has nothing to do with me. The only appropriate choice on my part as an employee was to sell them the shirt I was paid to sell them without regard to personal factors about the customer.

In terms of my own personal morals, I also would not be alright with refusing to sell a product or most services to someone simply because their beliefs differ from mine. That feels judgmental, intolerant, disrespectful of others' autonomy to make their own choices, and just wrong. Someone can hold a belief that I am 100% convinced is wrong and still deserves to be able to get what they want or need from whatever business I am employed by.[/quote]

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