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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Let's assume for the moment that because we do not have an explanation for the existence of matter, we have to posit a creator. Okay. That doesn't get you to God as any major world religion defines him. It just gets you a creator.[/quote]

That is fine!  If we call God the Creator, the First Mover, does that change some of the professed atheists' position?  Because very few of the PPs who professed atheism specifically stated they do not believe in a Creator.  They just had problems with various religions.[/quote]

As soon as you call God a Creator, you are envisioning God as an intelligent being.  Physics does not require an intelligent being to explain the creation of the Universe.  Physics does not know what, if anything existed prior to that moment, but  the standard model handles everything from T=0.[/quote]

I don't think it follows that, as soon as you call God a Creator, you are envisioning an intelligent being.  Does a creator need to be intelligent?  does it need to be a "being"?  Isn't saying this a bit antropomorphic?  Whatever it is, God is our only word for it.  And the Standard Model does indeed only tell you about everything from T>0.  T=0 is the great mystery.[/quote]

To me, the word "creator" implies will.  I have a hard time calling a force such a gravity "creator".  I suppose we could call a force "creator".  But if we do, how meaningful is the term?  If I say my god is quantum loop gravitation, do I have anything meaningfully in common with other believers beyond the idea that the universe had a starting point?

It is true that we don't know everything at T=0, but we know most of the story.   We are really debating the first 10^-43 seconds of existence, which is probably the smallest fraction of time ever debated about anything.  The Standard Model says the universe is infinitely hot and dense at T=0, and the quantum loop gravitation people think a prior universe crunches to nearly but not exactly that point.  The fact that we can't yet work out the quantum gravitational calculations is no reason to say "Oh, there is a mystery!  That proves there is a God!".  Isn't that the oldest justification for God?  We don't understand something, so we attribute it to divinity?  But we don't worship volcanoes anymore, so I don't think that the inability to explain every detail at the beginning of the universe gives us cause to jump to the conclusion of God.

The fact is that whether we believe in God or not, we have a difficult concept to swallow:  that there is something that either began out of nothing or something that always was.  Whether that thing is God or the universe, it is always tough to comprehend because there is only one such "first thing", and we will never be there to see that moment.

FWIW I believe in God, but not because I need an explanation for how the universe began.  Physics is good enough for that to me.
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