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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote]
PP, I'm the poster writing about how God didn't make worshipful robots. I'm very logical myself - advanced degree from top 3 university, work in research, dozens of published papers. I do get the need for logic and how difficult cognitive dissonance can be. I read several theology books a year, and I'm always studying. I can't say that I've satisfied my every question. But, contrary to our atheist friend's contention, I find the gospels to be pretty logical (perhaps the Roman environment had something to do with this). It's not what goes in your mouth but what comes out... loving your neighbor is easy, so try to love your enemies in this interconnected 21st century world of ours.... and so on[/quote]

As a published researcher, certainly you understand that you should examine multiple sources around an event.  Aside from the insignificant accounts from Josephus, Pliny, and Tacitus, what other evidence proves the existence of Jesus outside of the gospels?

One would think that if a man turned water into wine - one of the lesser miracles imo - it would certainly be captured by many others.

[/quote]

Historians are not in the business of verifying miracles because they can only study that which happens within the natural environment, and miracles are supernatural.  What historians could verify would be if anyone was talking about the miracles that Jesus was doing and apparently, they were not.[/quote]

I realize that.  Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

And that's why I mentioned examining multiple sources as a way to document these miracles.  Again, if these miracles did take place, they would have been so wondrous that many others would have noted them.

odd that this wasn't the case . . . [/quote]

Just because people  didn't note them doesn't mean they didn't happen.  Most people were illiterate then and of course, transportation was very slow, so it may not be so strange that word didn't get around.

Looks at the Exodus -- that made big news eventually.  It changed the course of the world! But there's no record of people knowing about it when it was happening, and 20th century Jewish archaeologists found nothing in the desert to indicate that anyone spent 40 years crossing it.

This is where faith comes in.  It's a fool's errand to try to prove anything in the Bible.  Historians and archeologists have failed over and over again and literature and mythology experts have traced biblical stories to other similar ancient stories that no one thinks are factual.   But faith and empirical knowledge are two different things and should not be confused.   You can be very intelligent and have faith that allows you to disregard science and history and literature.  Not so much to disregard it, really, but to compartmentalize it - to place it in a different realm that does not interfere with the gift of faith.  Not everyone can do it.  It takes intelligence and determination, as well as the grace of God.[/quote]

You must know about oral tradition, yes?  Look at the Greek and Roman myths that were passed down orally.

Again, if these miracles did indeed occur, we would have witnesses - however many people removed from the actual events.

sorry - I prefer fact over faith.  [/quote]
1 John 1:1-4 says, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us -- that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete."

Luke's gospel begins thus: "Inasmuch as [b]many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us[/b], just as those who from the beginning[b] were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word[/b] have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught."

Matthew was a follower of Christ and first-hand witness of the events he recounts.

It seems odd that one would reject the Gospels as not being eyewitness accounts just because there weren't MORE eyewitness accounts than the ones we have.[/quote]

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