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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
If stealing, forging lies, fornication were all expressly forbidden, which they were, then [b]it goes without saying [/b]that men coming into the tribe would have had to abstain from these to gain admission into the tribe and to simply be a Muslim. It was spelled out in an oath for women because Allah/God was giving instructions to the Prophet on how to handle a new situation, the flood of women arriving into Medina, seeking admission into the Prophets tribe, WITHOUT husbands or guardians, and sometimes with children. That an oath with prohibitions was spelled out for women does not imply restrictions did not also exist for men. Thats faulty reasoning.  We know these same prohibitions and restrictions are part of Islam. Its spelled out over and over throughout the Quran. They just were not spelled out like the oath was spelled out because here, God was providing instructions on a new dilemma with women seeking admission, without husbands present and yet with children.

As far as fornication & adultery being commonplace, it was. As were other kinds of bad behavior. But if you insist that a Arab Muslims word, account, or testimony is inherently false, then you will discount 99% of historical accounts because Arabs would naturally be the ones to report on their own history.

You can't come to the table to understand Islam with a prejudicial mind. If you do, then it is no surprise to anyone that you disregard everything you hear.

[/quote]

^^^ I'm not the person you're talking to, but I am 8:40/8:59  who used "it goes without saying" before you used it just now. I wasn't using "it goes without saying" as evidence so much as to restate the obvious, i.e., choices were obviously made. You're trying to use "it goes without saying" as a substitute for evidence. That doesn't work. We'd all still like to see an actual verse directed at men.

The underlying assumption to your argument seems to be that [b]women need guardians [/b]for everything else, but an exception is being made for this particular pledge, just this one time.

That hardly suggests that women were free to speak independently of a guardian in any other situation, like voting or pledging to other things.
[/quote]
This particular group of women did not have suitable guardians - Islam does not consider non-Muslim husbands fit for guardianship over Muslim women. [/quote]

That's not the point. The point is, this women's pledge comes off as a [b]one-time exception [/b]that allowed women to make this purity pledge on their own cognizance. Just this once, and only because they lacked guardians to make the pledge for them.

Presumably these immigrant women were quickly put under Mohammed's protection or were found husbands. Because, as you have pointed out, the woman's role is generally as half of a couple and living independently without a guardian is not the norm.

Men were always able to pledge things like purity on their own cognizance. So whether or not men were required to make a similar purity pledge (which you have no way of proving), the Quran wouldn't have needed to write out a similar one-time exception for them. Let's be very clear: the existence of an exception for women in no way proves that men might have had to make a similar purity pledge.

The upshot is that this does NOT seem like it's giving women [b]permanent[/b] voting rights or, for that matter,a ny other rights to make their own pledges or decisions. in fact, quite the opposite. Once an immigrant women was re-established with a guardian, presumably everything would return to the norm, which would be that the new guardian makes all the decisions (purity or other pledges) for her.[/quote]

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