Reply to "The [abortion] law has created torture."

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I’m really not interested in hearing what a father thinks. Why is he speaking for the mother? Why don’t he let her speak for herself? [/quote]

Because she could have left to get the abortion. Because people raised money for the family to do so. Because they chose not to.[/quote]
That wasn’t in this article.[/quote]

It was in previous articles. Sorry your sources are poor reporters of the truth[/quote]

1. The couple worried they could be arrested if they sought an out of state abortion and voiced concern about ensuring they could be there for their existing child
2. [b]How sad of a world we are in that a woman would have to travel out of state for ethically appropriate healthcare[/b]
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+1
It also puts the healthcare of women in the remaining free states at risk. There aren’t that many obstetricians to go around. 
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Anyone traveling to a state where abortion is still legal needs to show their voting record. If they voted GOP, nope, no taking services. You bought the ticket, you take the ride.[/quote]

On the other hand, if this woman’s family starts voting for pro life candidates, that could be a lot of people changing sides. Milo’s parents, her parents, her 6 siblings, their spouses. That’s almost 20 people without getting into extended family, church, or friends. This is how change happens. Unfortunately because of republicans, a lot of babies are going to have to die, families will go into debt to pay for hospital bills that shouldn’t have been needed, some women will lose their fertility and lives along the way, and it’s going to break families apart with the stress of dying children, debt, and grief. But they will have won for a little while. [/quote]

It may cause some people to change sides, but I doubt it. I have many prolifers in my own family who would stare down this kind of suffering, explain it away as God’s plan and good for them leaving open the possibility for a miracle, and then go right on back to the same crap way of voting. They don’t want to hear that they forced avoidable suffering on their loved ones. They don’t want to take accountability for they’ve done and what they supported.

They are all just “innocent Germans” who only cared about the economy. [/quote]

Omg yes, this. I know all the same people, sadly.[/quote]

Unfortunately. Abortion is also a violent procedure[/quote]

A late term abortion involves injecting potassium 
chloride into the heart to stop it  That's it. That's violent vs watching the child gasp for air?

Sadly, palliative care for a newborn infant is still lacking in terms of knowledge among providers amd actual research for how best to apply it. It happens, but isn't so common to deal with a sudden infant death that is occurring within hours of birth. Research will improve given new laws that will require it more frequently, but undoubtedly, healthcare isn't as good as this as you might think for a newborn, let alone a newborn dying within 99 minutes requiring an IV and VERY quickly sorting out titrating up medication dosages.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5835990/[/quote]

Mother still has to deliver. Traumatic either way, no?[/quote]

My staunchly conservative brother and sister in law were anti abortion till they found themselves in a very similar situation to this woman with a fatal diagnosis. My sister in law chose the potassium chloride and D&E route.[/quote]
Please slap them the next time you see them and tell them they are hypocrites. People like this deserve to be slapped - I've cut off evil family members who do this sh-- and I hold them accountable for supporting evil.[/quote]

I posted this and no, I will not. Do you do this with your conservative family members? Having honest conversations leads to progress. Shutting them leads nowhere.[/quote]

Honestly, sometimes they need to be confronted with the same bilious invective they would have happily spewed on someone else back when they thought they’d be immune from consequences. Or at least a reminder they are fortunate to have had supportive family members that understood that these things are awful tragedies and you are choosing the best and humane course out of bad options.

Otherwise- these people are just coming away with the same “my abortion is a moral abortion” takeaway that leads them to restrict rights for others and results in less connected or wealthy women getting killed. [/quote]

Honestly, there's a reason that no one talks to you IRL and that all of your friends and family have dropped you and don't respond to you.  [/quote]

Nice chat, but I generally don’t befriend fascists. If they dropped me I never noticed, my calendar is full.

Good on you, though. They love to kill people and relish in their “pro life” moral authority, knowing “libs” like you will have their back when it’s their lives on the line and will be quiet and discreet while they go right back to voting to kill other people. [/quote]

I'm a liberal and I hate that kind of "cut you off and then smack you rub your face in it when I'm right" sh*t. Why? IT DOES NOT HELP, IT HURTS. I say this as a liberal with very conservative family members. They actually listen to me when I talk respectfully and point out concerns with their POV on certain topics. I have friends who talk that way of "just cut them off" and Every. Single. One. Of. Them. Lives in a sealed bubble of only people who think like them and makes it so easy to say this stuff. If you want to actually win the war you need to UNDERSTAND and directly address the other point of view to address it. Repeatedly. Over and over. That is a smart war tactic.
[/quote]

Hon, they listen to you respectfully and then they do what they want. Tell yourself what you need to tell yourself, but some people JUST DO NOT UNDERSTAND until they experience it, and even then, they lack the self awareness to process how things would have been much worse for themselves if they got the treatment they wanted others to get.

They are trying to persuade you too. They most likely think they have God on their side. They are testing out their taking points on you. I’ve seen their literature- don’t be fooled into thinking you are making a difference.

Rubbing their faces in it might be the only thing that can work. God knows we’ve tried everything else in the past 50 years. Sad, but I’d rather rub their faces in their own tragedies than mine or an innocent’s. [/quote]

Again, if you don't engage in conversation, you never win. I don't rub anyone's face in anything. I especially wouldn't do that w/ a conservative as that would certainly confirm their preconceived notions about liberal smugness. And FWIW, my conservative family members aren't all religious, so Christian beliefs aren't the reason all conservatives have certain stances. You might learn that if you talked to some of them. I know atheists who are anti-abortion without restrictions.
[/quote]

I know plenty of so-called “libertarian” atheist men who are happy to use abortion as a tool to control women because they are insecure in their masculinity or afraid a one night stand is going to reject their seed or something. I’ve met all sorts of forced birthers. I don’t really care their reasons, they don’t matter. They didn’t logic themselves into the box and I’m not going to logic them out. It may be helpful to get new talking points that may make it through the less thick of the skulls, but learned experience is what gets us out of this box we are in now.

Did you think we got Roe because women changed hearts and minds? No, we got Roe because enough middle class white men had enough middle class white women close to them die that they had a real problem on their hands. Dead wives, abandoned children, dead law clerks leaving a caseload. It appears we are going to have to go down the same road again because we learned nothing in the last 50 years. And I will be happy to “educate” the monsters who forced it to happen. 
[/quote]

I'm pro choice, but you are way extreme in your views. People should disown their entire families of they have conservative family members? That's.... Not realistic nor helpful.[/quote]

NP. I think you should read again what that poster write. She didn’t mention disowning conservative family members. The poster said she would educate the monsters who experienced the negative results of what they supported. [/quote]

It's not necessary to educate them because they now have the same opinion. The PP is more about that not being hood enough, rub it in their face about their desired, but lost, child, per some other posts that were deleted.

In general even *many* conservatives are for abortion that is medically necessary, but unfortunately the extreme no exception types are dominating state law. It's telling that most conservative states are not putting it to a vote as they know how their predominantly conservative populations would vote as was already done in other states that did enact referendums.[/quote]

NP. I don’t care that they kind of support abortion. They voted for the politicians who promised to overturn Roe. They supported restrictions to varying degrees without considering the consequences. They deserve to have their faces rubbed in it. I hope people point out that their votes, their support of overly conservative politicians got them to the place where their daughter had to file for bankruptcy and then divorced from the stress of losing a child and financial struggles after she wasn’t allowed to terminate her nonviable pregnancy. I hope they have PTSD from watching her almost die, and I hope they realize they did this to themselves. Same as how I hope the people who vote for NRA owned candidates struggle daily with the grief of knowing they could’ve voted differently and maybe saved their kids from gun violence. I hope the knowledge that they helped create that situation is as painful as the losses they suffer. They deserve that. Being polite and giving them grace hasn’t helped. They’re certainly not giving politeness and grace to trans kids, trans adults, people needing food assistance, people seeking asylum, women, non Christians, children locked in rooms in schools with gunmen… I’m over protecting their feelings. [/quote]

There is a lot of generalization over who conservatives are and how and what they think when the reality is much more diverse and complicated than that (same can be said of how some conservatives stereotype liberals).

I have some family who are highly educated, Trump hating conservatives and other family who are lesser educated MAGA types, a couple of whom branches onto conspiracy theories Those two types agree on some issues but not the rationale to get there, and on other issues, they'd disagree. I am literally one of the lone wolves in a sea of conservative family members. However, being more intimately familiar from the inside with how they think, the one thing I know with absolute certainty - for anyone - is that the tactic of talking in an elitist "see what you did you dumb@ss" way about a topic will immediately shut them down. In contrast, talking rationally and yes, respectfully even when it's been difficult, has made things happen. Like, for instance, I convinced three MAGA "never taking that shot" family members to get the COVID vaccine. I got one family member to agree that universal healthcare is s good thing.

The anti Trump conservatives think differently, they are highly educated. They are also honestly more middle of the road and at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they veer democratic in the next national election though holding their nose while they do it.

Anyhow, to suggest I condescendingly rub my own bother's prior voting history in his face after he has already changed his mind from his twenties to his forties and lost a wanted baby in the process? No, that's messed up.

[/quote]

I get it.  You want to be considerate of your brother who you no doubt love.

I have a sister-in-law like this.  She is a Christian and I believe she comes from a good place. She truly thinks she knows what is needed for everyone and believes strongly that if she can just reach these women who are contemplating abortion, they would “choose life.”   I had previously thought she was deluded but whatever - she can talk to whoever she wants about whatever she wants.

But now that we have some of these awful stories coming out, I cannot sit back and pretend her fake piousness is not poisonous.  And I have quit giving her space to spew her anti abortion bile in my presence.  I instead do tell her that the politicians she has spent a lifetime voting for are delivering what they have promised and the hellscape they are creating is worse than anything I could have imagined.   She needs to learn that others don’t feel the same way she does.  [/quote]

I'm the PP and I also have family like this. I have one member who sounds exactly like this. They are the more MAGA types. I wouldn't have any problem either addressing what she said if she started going on. There's a way to do that though, to actually get the point across. It's playing chess.[/quote]

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