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[quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous]I am as liberal as you can get, and [b]I do not defend Islam[/b].  I agree with Sam Harris that Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas.  No matter how you turn it, the basic principles of Islam are not those of a tolerant religion.

[b]I don't defend fundamentalist Christianity[/b] either.  Both religions have, at their very base, very bad ideas.  That doesn't mean that you can't water them down, edit them or ignore the ideas/commandments that you don't like and consider yourself a member of that religion.

What it does mean is that, with very little effort, you can find in both religious texts plenty of justification to enslave, murder or obliterate anyone that disrespects you.[/quote]

Why do you qualify Christianity in a manner that you don't for Islam?
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I'm not that poster, but I could have written that post. I think fundamentalist Christianity is intolerant in a way that's inconsistent with a straight reading of the gospels. Jesus never talked about homosexuals, he encouraged Martha to leave the kitchen and come hear his teachings, and so on. Fundamentalist Christianity relies on Old Testament attitudes towards women and gays that I consider the gospels to have abandoned at the same time they abandoned dietary laws. Also, the gospels are all about avoiding war, loving your enemy, and so on. I've read the Quran from front to back (in translation, but no help for that), and I saw very different messages about the umma versus everybody else.[/quote]

So, you are saying that there is no version of Islam that you would ever defend? You and I have had this discussion a number of times and it is pretty useless to repeat everything. But, I am still astonished that you put so much faith in something you have read while ignoring actual practices (which includes how those words are interpreted by believers of the religion). As your distinction between "fundamentalist Christians" and non-fundamentalist Christians shows, two groups can read the same words but practice what they read much differently. I'm surprised that you can't acknowledge that the same is true of Islam.
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It's tougher with the Quran, which is God's literal word transmitted to Mohammed by the angel. You know that.[/quote]

That's what Muslims believe. It is not something that I believe. At any rate, the words can be interpreted a number of ways -- and are. Not only the literal meaning is often in dispute, but there are often debates over whether the words are meant to be literal or metaphoric. As I've said before, even something relative simple like the US constitution is interpreted several ways -- just look at the 2nd Amendment. The Quran is far more subject to interpretation given the style in which is is written and the type of Arabic used.
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It's like you want to challenge everything that even slightly goes against your positions, but you can't challenge the statement itself about the Quran being said as God's word. So you insinuate that my "you know that" was referring to your beliefs not to your knowledge.

Anyway. Of course there are endless debates about the meaning of God's word. E.g., what does the injunction for women to cover their beautiful parts really mean, anyway? The lack of diacritical marks makes it tough in places. But many parts are straightforward. [/quote]

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