Reply to If it’s harder then ever to get into top colleges, why do professors complain students now are bad?

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]If you listen to any admissions officers’ podcasts, they are all trying to save people. They all sound like lovely humans who mean well, obviously got into this profession to make a difference, but you can tell they are also a little too idealistic and naive (so many sound so young, in their mid to late 20’s, but even the older ones sound idealistic). They talk so much about “distance traveled”, placing a lot of emphasis on helping first-gen, low income, and especially rural kids.

In principle I agree with them too, but it sounds like in reality, a lot of these kids are just not ready when they come on campus. A lot of resources are being spent on outreaching to these kids, flying them in all expenses paid, paying for college prep experiences for them during the summer after they are admitted, and setting aside special mentors and remedial classes for them once they arrive. Professors are complaining, but they also want to help these kids. I support efforts to advance upward mobility (the world is too unfair) and hope some of these kids do come out swinging on the other side, but there will be some who won’t make it. This is not a movie and life is not The Blind Side, but I understand why they try. In the long run, their well-intended crusade could end up fracturing long-standing institutions; you can already see that happening on campuses. I guess to them, that’s a risk worth taking.

America is an idealistic country and a young country so we always try to force things to happen sooner. In general, I tend to think that’s a good thing. In countries that have been around longer and are more practical like the UK, they let poor kids rise to the top on their own and somehow make it to Oxbridge from dirt poor families, but those kids are rare and typically white. Tuition is also much lower there so the economic barriers are not as high if the universities don’t go out of their way to manufacture a special path for the poor kids. [/quote]

FGLI encapsulates the issue.

First Generation - Why would you give a preference to less prepared kids whose parents did not go to college?  If they have the initiative to apply to college at all, there is a college somewhere that will take them. Community college if nowhere else.  And then the next generation after them will reach a little higher on the ladder and the generation higher still until they become UMC parents that start worrying about downward social mobility.  Why does all the social mobility have to happen in one generation?  Why do they need to be represented beyond their ability warrants at the most selective colleges and universities in America?

Low income - I understand that low income students need money to attend college but once again, but why do they have to attend colleges that are more selective than their abilities would warrant?  Why can't this happen over several generations?  Make colleges more affordable, sure, have lower standards based on income?  Why?  Sure it is harder for people with fewer resources to achieve the same level of mastery but they have in fact only achieved their actual level of academic mastery.[/quote]

Wow. So much of this is problematic. 
Contrary to popular belief, college -- and elite colleges --  is not just a pathway or tool for the upper- and upper-middle class to continue education after high school. College is one of the most reliable tools for economic mobility FOR THE LOWER CLASSES. It's baked into the ethics of the US educational system. They are not just supposed to serve as finishing schools for the elite, many of whom -- let's be honest here -- probably could get into high income jobs through connections. College is a place where the playing field can be leveled. And to suggest that first income students are only allowed to go to community college is so classist. If they can get into Harvard or UVA based on GPA and test scores -- even if the threshold for their scores is slightly lower to account for the fact that they don't have the familial advantages -- so be it. Contrary to popular belief, those schools are not just welcoming low income students into college if those students fail to admit rigerous admissions criteria. Sure, the criteria might be slightly less rigerous, but again, that's because of the role of higher ed in the US as a place to break down class barriers.

In the city where I live, the selective K-12 schools require a test for admission. They also prioritize students from low-income neighborhoods, because those students have more factors working against them (if you're from a rich area, your score required to get in will on average be higher than in a poorer area). They still have to have a high test score and a high GPA, and to be more merit-based they even fill a large chunk of the seats based on score alone without any other considerations. On paper, does that mean that a kid from a lower-income neighborhood will enter with a lower score than one from a higher income neighborhood? Typically, yes. BUT THEN the schools provide wraparound support to help those students keep up and graduate, which they ultimately do end up doing. They take the same classes, they are graded on the same rubric. And maybe their GPA still ends up lower because they had to work a job to support their family, instead of having their family provide them with tutoring support.

THAT is why colleges prioritize students from low income or first generation backgrounds. They [i]typically [/i]have disadvantages that wealthier students [i]typically [/i]do not have. BUT THEN it should be up to the college to provide the additional support needed to make sure those students are successful, be it through one-on-one counseling or a summer bridge program or some other supports.

I am aware none of this addresses OP's question but I just had to sound off here about the previous comments. [/quote]

Ok? Then just go to the state university?

I fall into the camp that says don't lower standards for anyone at elite schools, whether first gen or black or legacy. It hurts these schools in the long run and doesn't necessarily deliver the benefits anticipated. A lot of those kids end up with a chip on their shoulders.

First gen or whatever who has the aptitude and merit to get in and perform competitively, absolutely fine. But lowering standards is only playing games with them that can backfire and hurt them more than you might think. There's already a culture of what I'd call "privileged bitterness" that is mollycoddled by admin but doesn't do anyone favors.[/quote]

I really hate the argument that "state schools" (many of which are incredibly difficult to get into) are the place where lower income students should attend because they can't "cut it" at the privates.

Also, a very easy google search provides data and research against the claim that students from low income backgrounds perform less well than other students. 
https://www.jkcf.org/research/opening-doors-how-selective-colleges-and-universities-are-expanding-access-for-high-achieving-low-income-students/

And also the entire argument that elite institutions are currently flooded with low-achieving poor students is just baloney as well. 
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/admissions/traditional-age/2024/11/21/no-change-elite-college-low-income-enrollment-1920s

The call is coming from inside the house. If professors are complaining about ill-prepared students, and those students are just as likely to be from the middle and upper classes as they were 100 years ago (which is to say, they are), people on this board need to look at their own children. The argument that all of this is because of diversity is Fox News class and race baiting garbage.[/quote]

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