Reply to And that's why I'll never understand why people kill little babies who were not born yet...

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]If a fetus isn't born yet, it isn't a little baby, OP.[/quote]

Yes it is.

I have to call myself pro-choice, because I believe that abortions should be available to women under some circumstances (and I am also right on board with all the posters on this thread who have talked about education and readily available birth control as essential, not only to help reduce the number of abortions but also just for the health of every person who is/will be sexually active!), but I cannot see this issue as black and white or ever pretend that I support the idea that abortions taking place in all possible circumstances is okay.  I am the poster who said I cried when I read the stories of the women who had the terrible diagnoses and chose to abort.  I support their choice and their right to that choice, but that doesn't mean I don't find their stories to be tragic.  I get so sick and tired of other individuals who are pro-choice who hide behind this "well, it's not really a human being" or "it's not a person yet" argument.  An abortion kills an unborn child.  Yes, that term is inflammatory, and it should be.  Pro-choice can't dismiss this reality as a way to justify their arguments any more than pro-lifers can dismiss the realities of all the children in the foster care system, etc.  The argument about abortion is about the rights of the mother vs. the rights of the fetus, not about whether or not the embryo or fetus is a human being.  If you are pro-choice, then you believe that, at least in some circumstances, the rights of the mother outweigh those of the fetus.  If you are pro-life, you believe the rights of the fetus outweight those of the mother or, at the very least, that they have equal rights.  [/quote]

Sweetheart, pro-choicers use terms like "fetus" and "zygote" because they are [i]medically accurate[/i].  It's an attempt to avoid inflammatory rhetoric like "unborn baby" designed to tug on emotions.  Why on earth would you purposely use an inflammatory term in an already inflammatory debate?  Do you really want this issue to be decided by who can cover their ears and yell "LALALALALA" the loudest?

And you are completely bass-ackwards in your definitions of pro-choice and pro-life.  A pro-choicer believes that each woman should decide for herself whether her rights are outweighed by the fetus -- that is why you have pro-choicers who would never have an abortion themselves but would preserve that right for other women.  A pro-lifer believes that this choice should be made by the government in favor of the fetus.[/quote]

I'm not your sweetheart.

Now that we have that out of the way...I also use fetus, zygote, embryo...all medically accurate terms for different phases of *human* development.  So your point was???

Some pro-choice advocates get their panties all in a huge whirl if you use the term "unborn baby" as though you are caving to the pro-lifers.  It is so sad that this is where we find ourselves.  We are so afraid of losing the right to abortion that we have to dehumanize the baby.  But it is a baby, and, therefore, the choice to abort it should always be a weighty one.  To say otherwise is just wrong.

And actually, I don't think I'm ass-backwards; I think we stated basically the same things.  When I say the woman's rights trump those of her zygote/embryo/fetus/unborn baby, to me that is the same thing as saying she gets the choice.  On the other hand, a pro-life advocate would say the baby's rights are equal to (or some might even say supersede) those of the mother, so it is not her choice.  In either case, the role of the government is to protect somebody's rights...either the mother's right to choose or the baby's rights.  We each fall on one side of that debate or the other re: whose rights the government ought to be protecting.

So again, your point was??? Just that I can't say unborn baby or I'm a bad pro-choicer?[/quote]

I don't believe that life begins at conception, or implantation for that matter. I believe that each woman has the right to determine this on her own, not that her rights trump the rights of the fetus. [/quote]

So before birth, a fetus is not a life?  Not alive?  Human beings develop in a progression from single cell, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler...and so on until they die.  If you believe that a person does not have the "right to life" until it can exist physically indepedently of its mother, so be it, but it is still a human being.  That's all I'm saying.  This clump of cells rationalization is just a way to try and sugar coat something that shouldn't be sugar coated.

What a better world it would be if we could all get together and just agree that abortion is not the preferred way to go, even if we believe that a woman has a right to choose to have one, and expend our energy on ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place, ways to support those women who might choose to keep a pregnancy if they actually had a support system and the means to raise one and things like that.  Support the efforts of Planned Parenthood, Gabriel's Project, etc.  Shocking to mention the two in the same sentence, I know, but the truth is that different women need/want different kinds of support.  Instead of calling each other names and demonizing one another, realizing that deep down, we all value life.  I can't imagine that most pro-life people hate all women and want them to suffer, even if there are a few extremists, any more than I believe that anyone who is pro-choice doesn't care about life or babies.  We want healthy, happy women and we want children in the world who are supported and loved.  Who on either side would argue that they don't want that? [/quote]

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