Reply to Homeless Man Killed by Fellow Passenger on NYC Subway

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]This is so sad. Vigilante justice cannot be condoned.[/quote]

That is not what happened here.  Self-defense or defense of others is not vigilantism.  It is defense.[/quote]

Penny didn't target Neely. He acted to protect himself and others on an enclosed subway car when a man with serious mental health deficits demanded money and threatened violence. And I believe the killing was an accident -- I don't think Penny wanted to kill someone that day. He wanted to incapacitate someone who posed a threat, and I think in doing so accidentally killed him. He never should have been charged with the higher charge to begin with, and the situation does not really meet the requirements for manslaughter either. [/quote]

Holding a choke for a minute after someone is unconscious is an accident? Most people would probably say that it's reckless, and that's all they need for a conviction on the manslaughter charge.[/quote]

For someone who is not a police office, who is acting on instinct and out of fear, yes.

A minute is nothing. It's really not that long. Have you ever been in a situation where you feared for your life or that of a loved one, and had the adrenaline pumping and your heart pounding in your ears? Hyper vigilance in a situation like that frequently lasts past when the threat has been neutralized. It takes time for your body to respond to new information about your safety. That it only took Penny a minute to re-acclimate and let go is likely actually a testament to his training as a marine, making him more accustomed to processing intense fear and managing fight or flight.

I have worked in victim advocacy (specifically with rape victims) and this is a frequent problem with how people evaluate the behavior of victims after the fact. People want to impose impassioned logic on the behavior of someone who is experiencing an intense fear response, and it is very common to misread behavior. Your brain cannot process logic when it is flooded with adrenaline.[/quote]

So he's not a trained police officer, but he is a trained marine.

Your charcterization of the situation is very misleading. Why would you do that? This is not an adrenaline dump type situation like a close quarters shooting or violent rape. Penny had back control and a rear naked choke applied to someone who has no idea how to fight. He held this position for several minutes and even had bystanders ready to help. [/quote]

You don't think a situation where a group of people were threatened by an apparently unstable man in a small sealed tube is going to result in an adrenaline flood? Of course it is. He held the position until he felt it was safe. This wound up being slightly longer (but only slightly) than when it was in fact actually safe.

And yes, marines and police officers are trained different. It is more normal for a marine to maintain an offensive posture for longer than it would be for a police officer because marines have to operate in places where deadly violence might come from anywhere.

You are also overlooking the fact that the specific action Penny took -- to physically disable Neely by placing him in a choke hold -- engaged his full body and required sustained engagement. Unlike shooting a gun or even brandishing a knife, a choke hold requires you to maintain tension in your body because it puts you in very close physical contact with exactly the person you are afraid of. It does not surprise me at all that it would take a minute or longer for Penny's brain to comprehend that the danger had passed and then to send the message to the rest of his body to release the hold. I have worked with rape survivors who even years later will have an uncontrolled physical response to certain triggers because your body doesn't understand logic and adrenaline and other hormones can have such a powerful and immobilizing control over the body. You really have to work to to counteract those hormones. Fear turns humans into animals.[/quote]

I think maybe you've read a lot about these things but don't really have any actual experience when it comes to use of force or MMA. Continuing to choke someone for a minute after the person loses conciousness is an absolute eternity and basically a death sentence. This is not a brutal hand to hand engagement during a time of war. This is a guy who did an awesome job of intervening to a perceived threat and really did a great job of mainting control despite not being very skilled (probably his defense). He just screwed the pooch by taking things too far.[/quote]

He actually didn’t because now he’s a free man. [/quote]

Source?[/quote]

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