Reply to was 1/6 an insurrection and are we in the throes of a civil war?

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]1/6 was the redneck reverse of a BLM protest. And their savior Trump hasn't even tried to help any of his minions who got nto trouble. [/quote]
No, it was way more serious than that.  Sure some of the people there were just standard meal team six afficianados but others went much further.  They were specifically trying to stop the electoral count and overthrow the election.  It was straight up an attempted coup.[/quote]

So we had an insurrection/revolution where a bunch of gun owners left their firearms at home?  Is that how you’re seeing this?[/quote]
What you’re seeing is uninformed and incorrect.
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/977879589/yes-capitol-rioters-were-armed-here-are-the-weapons-prosecutors-say-they-used[/quote]

You’re evading the issue. Is your position that we had an insurrection/revolution where a bunch of GUN OWNERS left their FIREARMS at home?

The NPR article details pepper spray, stun guns and baseball bats which is very consistent with some of the left riots we’ve seen, particularly in the Pacific Northwest. [/quote]
There were plenty who actually had guns there.
https://nypost.com/2022/12/23/capitol-riot-report-details-weapons-toted-by-28k-strong-trump-mob/[/quote]

“Plenty”?  Five firearms documented in the article, none at the Capitol, out of 28,000 people there that day.  My guess is the guys and gals who were armed with firearms knew to stay out of the cap building because most responsible gun owners are exceedingly careful about where they take their firearms.

This has to be the first revolution in history where a bunch of gun owners left their guns at home. [/quote]

You're right. This could be the first revolution in modern history where guns where left at home. It is what it is. Any other thoughts back on topic?[/quote]

Most reasonable people in a nonpartisan context would say if the gun owners leave their firearms at home, it wasn’t an insurrection/revolution. It was a riot.

Be careful about the standards you set. E.g., protestors storming the senate during the confirmation hearings of a SCOTUS nominee. [/quote]

bOtH sIDeS  :roll:

(IOW not the same)[/quote]

It’s not “both sides”. I’d be equally appalled at trespassing and interruption of government proceedings during the BK hearings  being stretched into insurrection/revolution charges. I’d feel the same way about the attacks on the federal courthouse in Portland. But believe me that it wouldn’t take many changes to the indictments in the Jan 6 cases to be applied to the people trying to stop the BK confirmation hearings. [/quote]

You are absolutely both siding this even if that isn't your intention.

The idea that you think what happened on 1/6 is now being stretched by the DOJ and prosecutors into insurrection/revolution, when, you know, it actually was based on the guilty pleas and the guilty convictions, is actually quite stunning.

The reason the BK protesters were not charged as such was because they were not trying to overthrow the government.

But sure, in your mind, they are the same.

:roll:[/quote]

Let me clarify:  I don’t believe that J6 was an insurrection/revolution and neither does DOJ. A tiny minority of the defendants charged out of J6 faced  indictments that fall into the family of “insurrection/revolution”. Indeed, even amongst the longest sentences handed out, once you get past the Proud Boys leaders, the serious sentences are for assuaging police.  Once you get past the proud boys and assaulting police charges; Then, the overwhelming majority of indictments are for disorderly conduct type offenses.  And yes, the BK hearing protestors meet the elements for the crimes that the vast vast majority of J6 rioters have faced. If you can’t see it, then you’re the one blinded by political bias. [/quote]

You clearly have no idea how prosecution works.

You indict for the most prosecutable crimes. The prosecuting documents outline the seditious conspiracy, but the indictments are for the things that were cut and dried, no-brainer convictions.

Understand, there were several classes of people on the mall and at the Capitol.

1) the "normies" as the Oath Keepers and Proud boys called them. These are the regular people who bought into the hype of a revolution and provided cover for the paramiliary that were on site. These are the people who generally got 30 days to a few months for being in restricted areas and otherwise being disorderly at the Capitol

2) the paramilitary participants - these are the oath keeper and proud boys members who partook in the planned activities, who coordinated and communicated locations and movements

3) the field organizers - these are the ones who were sentenced this week, the Biggs.Tarrios of the plan.

The ones who have not been indicted yet, the planners on the other side, the Roger Stones, Ali's people of that ilk and the funders, like the publix Grocery Store heiress, Ginni Thomas and people of that ilk. I hope/suspect those are coming.[/quote]

You clearly have no idea what is happening, here. According to the NPR database, there have been just shy of 1150 persons indicted out of the J6 riots. Fifteen (15!) have been charged with seditious conspiracy, mostly proud boys.  A little over 160 additional individuals haven charged with assault.

So, a little over 1% of people charged (again, 15 people) have been actually charged with anything looking like “insurrection/revolt”, and an additional 15% have been charged with assault (but not “insurrection/revolt” type charges).  Even if you want to broaden the scope to all violence charges, you still get to ~295 persons charged (including assault charges, but not sed conspiracy).

The remaining charges are overwhelmingly things like obstruction of an official proceeding, destruction of property, entering and remaining in a restricted area. This paragraph of charges could just as equally be applied to, for example, the protest of the BK SCOTUS hearings.

If DOJ is only willing to actually charge    15 people out of 1150 charged and (28,000 who were in DC protesting that day) with crimes that are in the treason/insurrection family, it simply is not reasonable to to call the event an insurrection/revolt/civil war.

Either DOJ is letting a whole lot of people off east, or this was really a riot and people have been charged as such. [/quote]

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