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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]It's interesting that he has such faith that our success is due to Judeo-Christian values, when it was the philosophy of John Locke and his Natural Law arguments which guaranteed full legal rights to Jews, which had been denied in many colonies prior.[/quote]

This was hashed out earlier in the thread. Judeo-Christian values do not refer to religious dogma, but the *values* which parallels the Natural Laws drawn on by John Locke, the foundational principle being that the most important rights of life, liberty, and property are are endowed onto people by "a higher power" and not by the government. This is what allows Loche to formulate the core ideals of the Englightenment, leading to the principle that governments derive their power from the ground up, willed into place by people, and therefore the concept of a constitutional government. [/quote]

Locke is so full of shit. There is nothing "natural" about law. It's manufactured. Life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness are all policy choices. It's a policy choice to prefer governments that have popular support. But history is full of examples that are contrary to this supposedly "natural" law. Far from being "unalienable rights," since at least the Agricultural Revolution, alienation of life, liberty, and property has been the historical norm. Protecting these things has been the exception. I think humans should be proud of themselves for creating legal structures that protect these things. We shouldn't pretend it's the work of some natural state or higher power. That creates dangerous blind spots. It makes us more inclined to take these things for granted.  [/quote]

Okaaaaay... but it remains a fact that Locke, and not Christianity, is the foundation of the constitution made us so successful.  Natural Law was never btw a protestant notion because Natural Law is based on observing the Universe, not the Bible.  That's why natural law sometimes appeals to atheists and skeptics.

Shapiro and the right is trying to push the same story that Gingrich did: that we are exceptional because of our primarily English heritage and culture.  This is an indirect attack on people from other parts of the world, a convenient way to pursue discrimination without directly claiming white supremacy.  [/quote]

Once again, I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand, no one is claiming that our country/constitution was founded on Christianity. Judeo-Christian values is not religious dogma, simply a set of distilled ethics and values that is held to be fundamental and true - none of which has specific attachment to Christianity or Judaism, which is why the movement was taken and championed by diests, along side Christians and Jews.  [/quote]

Oh yes, people do claim our country was founded on Christianity.  Have you been living in a hole?

If you are talking about generic ethics, all religions have them, and if we judged our leaders by what they practiced in their lives instead of what book they wave over their heads, we would all be better off.  For example, from the book of the dead (where Moses got some of his best material):

1. Hail, Usekh-nemmt, who comest forth from Anu, I have not committed sin.

2. Hail, Hept-khet, who comest forth from Kher-aha, I have not committed robbery with violence.

3. Hail, Fenti, who comest forth from Khemenu, I have not stolen.

4. Hail, Am-khaibit, who comest forth from Qernet, I have not slain men and women.

5. Hail, Neha-her, who comest forth from Rasta, I have not stolen grain.

6. Hail, Ruruti, who comest forth from Heaven, I have not purloined offerings.

7. Hail, Arfi-em-khet, who comest forth from Suat, I have not stolen the property of God.

8. Hail, Neba, who comest and goest, I have not uttered lies.

9. Hail, Set-qesu, who comest forth from Hensu, I have not carried away food.

10. Hail, Utu-nesert, who comest forth from Het-ka-Ptah, I have not uttered curses.

11. Hail, Qerrti, who comest forth from Amentet, I have not committed adultery.

12. Hail, Hraf-haf, who comest forth from thy cavern, I have made none to weep.

13. Hail, Basti, who comest forth from Bast, I have not eaten the heart.

14. Hail, Ta-retiu, who comest forth from the night, I have not attacked any man.

15. Hail, Unem-snef, who comest forth from the execution chamber, I am not a man of deceit.

16. Hail, Unem-besek, who comest forth from Mabit, I have not stolen cultivated land.

17. Hail, Neb-Maat, who comest forth from Maati, I have not been an eavesdropper.

18. Hail, Tenemiu, who comest forth from Bast, I have not slandered anyone.

19. Hail, Sertiu, who comest forth from Anu, I have not been angry without just cause.

20. Hail, Tutu, who comest forth from Ati, I have not debauched the wife of any man.

21. Hail, Uamenti, who comest forth from the Khebt chamber, I have not debauched the wives of other men.

22. Hail, Maa-antuf, who comest forth from Per-Menu, I have not polluted myself.

23. Hail, Her-uru, who comest forth from Nehatu, I have terrorized none.

24. Hail, Khemiu, who comest forth from Kaui, I have not transgressed the law.

25. Hail, Shet-kheru, who comest forth from Urit, I have not been angry.

26. Hail, Nekhenu, who comest forth from Heqat, I have not shut my ears to the words of truth.

27. Hail, Kenemti, who comest forth from Kenmet, I have not blasphemed.

28. Hail, An-hetep-f, who comest forth from Sau, I am not a man of violence.

29. Hail, Sera-kheru, who comest forth from Unaset, I have not been a stirrer up of strife.

30. Hail, Neb-heru, who comest forth from Netchfet, I have not acted with undue haste.

31. Hail, Sekhriu, who comest forth from Uten, I have not pried into other's matters.

32. Hail, Neb-abui, who comest forth from Sauti, I have not multiplied my words in speaking.

33. Hail, Nefer-Tem, who comest forth from Het-ka-Ptah, I have wronged none, I have done no evil.

34. Hail, Tem-Sepu, who comest forth from Tetu, I have not worked witchcraft against the king.

35. Hail, Ari-em-ab-f, who comest forth from Tebu, I have never stopped the flow of water of a neighbor.

36. Hail, Ahi, who comest forth from Nu, I have never raised my voice.

37. Hail, Uatch-rekhit, who comest forth from Sau, I have not cursed God.

38. Hail, Neheb-ka, who comest forth from thy cavern, I have not acted with arrogance.

39. Hail, Neheb-nefert, who comest forth from thy cavern, I have not stolen the bread of the gods.

40. Hail, Tcheser-tep, who comest forth from the shrine, I have not carried away the khenfu cakes from the spirits of the dead.

41. Hail, An-af, who comest forth from Maati, I have not snatched away the bread of the child, nor treated with contempt the god of my city.

42. Hail, Hetch-abhu, who comest forth from Ta-she, I have not slain the cattle belonging to the god.

[/quote]

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