Reply to Science channel's "Biblical Mysteries Explained"

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Now that we've gone off topic, I have a question for Muslim poster, who wrote:

[b]She had no idea about sura Ash Shurra and the verse that addressed men AND women on how to resolve (political) matters that required collective opinions. She could not read Arabic so she had no idea the language used in that verse was plural, addressing women too. [/b]

I don't see how the plural used shows definitively that both men and women were being addressed.  In Arabic, the same plural is used when it is men only being addressed or men and women being addressed.  I don't know what grounds one would use to say one or other was meant.  All that we know is that women only were not being addressed as that is a different plural.[/quote]

So it's like French and Spanish, if only in the sense that you use the masculine plural for a group that could either consist of both men and women, or just more than one men.  [/quote]

But 42:38 does not refer only to men and we know that because 42:38 is not a standalone verse. It must be read with the verses above it and the verses below it. Allah is communicating with everyone because in the verses above it He begins by addressing all believers. All believers means all Muslims or all who submit their will to God, not just men who are believers.[/quote]

Okay, so you dragged me back to the Arabic here.  I skimmed the sura pretty quickly, but I did not see a reference to "believers" and would not have considered it definitive if I had as it would have to use the masculine plural unless it was directed just at women (not your contention).

I did, however, find a definite clue that this sura is directed at both men and women in verse 42:11.  In this verse it says that God has made mates for you.  The word for mates uses the masculine plural.  If it was directed solely to men it would have used the feminine plural.  Use of the masculine plural shows the verse, and by extension the sura, is directed at both men and women.

Going back to 42:38, this is one of several verses that enunciate good behavior like avoiding major sins.  It does not set forth requirements--it is more like a list of best practices of the faithful.  One of these is having "their affair(s) [determined by] consultation".  Consultation among members of a tribe is an ancient practice pre-dating islam, that has continued on in tribes today.  As practiced today it almost always excludes women, although they can have indirect influence.  I am not sure what the practice was at the time as some women were clearly successful business women and some went into war.  I also am not sure--without a lot more work--what "affair" connoted at the time.

I would not equate tribal consultation, or consultation among the early Islamic community, as an electoral process.  Rather it is a consensus process.  I would consider it a pretty democratic process--people get their say, but the most influential have the sway, perhaps inspired by views of others.  Tribal leaders are determined by consensus views of who is best to lead (even today) and this process was followed for successors of Muhammed.  The process, however, did lead some to feel quite bitter about the choices and eventually led to the Shia split.[/quote]

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