Reply to Top 10 Universities - Holistic Admissions Fact or Fiction

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
But everyone does.  I taught labs and graded tests at a very selective university during graduate school.  I was a very strong supporter of affirmative action before that experience.  The bottom 5-6 students in the classes I graded were [b]always[/b] African-american students, and often their grades were WAY below the grades of other students in the class.  These kids simply didn't belong at the school, and their performance was radically worse than other students. Of course, they still got Cs and the (very) occasional D. Nobody really flunks out of prestigious universities, and the majority of these kids were passed through and got a degree which I honestly question if they actually deserved.  Once you experience this disparity it's hard to look at affirmative action as a positive thing.[/quote]

There's a big difference between the 400-point SAT gap in the Texas study somebody posted above, and the 100- or 150-point gap that PPs have pointed out for Harvard. A 400-point gap probably speaks to  a meaningful difference in abilities. The Harvard difference between 2100 and 2250 is not going to affect academic performance quite so drastically. Also, 2100 is probably high enough to ensure competency at pretty much any college in the country.[/quote]

PS. Should add that the thread is about "Top 10 Universities."  So we're *not* talking about students with SATs of 1500 and who are 400 points below the university average SATs. Instead, at the Top 10, we're talking about maybe a 100-150 point gap and SAT scores that are highly respectable 2100s.  The latter kids are perfectly capable of doing the work at any university in the country.[/quote]

I think you're giving way more credit to the self reported scores from an email survey from Harvard then it deserves.  Most studies show about a 300 point boost on a 1600 point scale when all other things are equal.

The journal of blacks in higher education did an analysis of SAT scores (Google jbhe.com sat scores) which detailed that about 1200 AA students get over 1400 on the SAT and ~250 get over 1500 each year. To have a SAT score average of 1400 for AA students at Harvard they would need to get a large percentage of these students, which is obviously not happening.  Or if it is happening, what does this mean for the other 10-15 schools with similar SAT ranges?[/quote]

"Most" studies look at a broad range of universities, not just at Harvard. The data from Harvard that was linked to earlier shows a much smaller range.

Also, source? I actually went to that Journal and couldn't find such an article. I did find a number or articles arguing that SES and educational disparities, not race per se, are responsible for the SAT score gap.

I was under the impression that this thread, per the header, is a discussion of holistic admissions at the top 10. Not a discussion of affirmative action at every school across the country, on average. If you want to talk about affirmative action, which is different from holistic admissions, why don't you start your own thread. Then we can contain the racism there.[/quote]

I'm almost afraid to post since this thread has spiraled out of control., but this was the article I was referencing: http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

Again, the numbers posted earlier are from a self reported e-mail survey and based on how AA students perform on the SAT I would be shocked if they were accurate. From the article posted:

"Let's be more specific about the SAT racial gap among high-scoring applicants. In 2005, 153,132 African Americans took the SAT test. They made up 10.4 percent of all SAT test takers. But only 1,132 African-American college-bound students scored 700 or above on the math SAT and only 1,205 scored at least 700 on the verbal SAT. Nationally, more than 100,000 students of all races scored 700 or above on the math SAT and 78,025 students scored 700 or above on the verbal SAT."

and

"If we raise the top-scoring threshold to students scoring 750 or above on both the math and verbal SAT — a level equal to the mean score of students entering the nation's most selective colleges such as Harvard, Princeton, and CalTech — we find that in the entire country 244 blacks scored 750 or above on the math SAT and 363 black students scored 750 or above on the verbal portion of the test."

Honestly though, my opinion is that private schools have the leeway to do what they want in admissions; they're private.  I do wish they would concentrate more on helping out kids who come from families that have historically been discriminated against though.  Stats show that a large number of the black students entering Harvard are affluent, and many of them are first generation kids from the west indies or Africa; not really the group AA was supposed to help out.

I also think that all [b]public[/b] schools should be completely merit based; considerations like race, athletic ability, legacy status should not be allowed.  Extraordinary accomplishments in fields related to academics or their intended major would obviously count as merit; I don't think everything should be based on scores/GPA.[/quote]

I'm responding to myself; sorry.  I went back and looked at the Harvard freshman class size; 1600 kids of which ~160 are AA.  With that number of kids, I retract my statement that a 2100 score for the entering AA students is impossible.  A school like Harvard probably [b]could[/b] assemble a class with those stats, and I agree, someone with a 2100 has the capability to be successful at any school.[/quote]

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