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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I grew up in a completely atheistic society, with no exposure to God or religion whatsoever. In elementary school, my teachers dismissed the idea of God as a relic of the past—something people believed in back when they also thought the earth was flat. But now, they told us, we have science and know better.

As I progressed into more advanced science classes in high school, I had a realization that changed everything. The world around us isn’t just a collection of random occurrences—it operates with remarkable precision, like an intricate, well-designed system. Our bodies, for example, contain multiple interdependent systems, each serving a specific function with clear purpose. And purpose-driven design always points to intelligence.

I thought about it this way: if you were walking on a deserted island and stumbled upon a system that collected rainwater and stored it in a barrel, you wouldn’t assume it appeared by accident. You’d immediately recognize that an intelligent being must have built it. Structures with purpose don’t arise from random chaos.

That’s how I began to see scientific processes—not as accidents, but as evidence of an extraordinary intelligence behind them. If it takes intelligence to understand the world, then it must have taken an even greater intelligence to create it. That was the moment I realized—there is undeniably a Creator of this universe.

After that realization, I felt a need to connect with the God I had discovered.  I had the opportunity to spend two months living in a monastery, an experience that changed me in ways I never expected. It wasn’t through intellectual reasoning that I found God there, but through my heart. That time brought me a deep sense of joy and led me to completely re-evaluate my life. It’s an experience that will always stay with me, and I am deeply grateful for it.[/quote]

That's the watchmaker argument.

1. If that is your worldview, please name one thing that isn't "designed".  You can't, because you believe everything was designed, in which case there would be no way to tell the difference, rendering the conclusion moot.

2. In addition to that false logic, you then make the gigantic leap to the conclusion that the "designs" were created by a supernatural being, who is outside of time and space and directly involved in our lives, with no evidence or logic for that.

3. Then, beyond that, you claim "if it takes intelligence to understand the world, then it must have taken an even greater intelligence to create it." which puts you in to infinite regress as then what created the creator?  If suddenly one is not necessary, then one is never necessary for "creation".

Three strikes, you're out.  It's a poor logical foundation.[/quote]

And it ignores that for such a "watchmaker" argument, he's a terrible designer/engineer. One would expect such a powerful entity capable of creating the universe to have perfected systems, instead they are haphazard and flawed. We humble humans already have better designs on many things than nature. [/quote]

But -- I learned it at church -- so it must be true![/quote]

I did not learn it in church.  Did you not read my post? This is what prompted me to seek church.  The experience I had in church was life defining, not the experience leading to it.  Do you really not see how [b]it is absolutely irrelevant whether my logic was off or not[/b]? (If ya all had better arguments I'd be up for a debate on my logic lol. But lets just assume it's flawed. Sure.)

If religion and faith were built on logic and science, I would not be interested in it. It would be very self limiting. [/quote]

"it is absolutely irrelevant whether my logic was off or not" says it all. If you had used logic, you would understand why the watchmaker argument fails.

"As I progressed into more advanced science classes in [b]high school[/b], I had a realization that changed everything. The world around us isn’t just a collection of random occurrences—it operates with remarkable precision, like an intricate, well-designed system. Our bodies, for example, contain multiple interdependent systems, each serving a specific function with clear purpose. And purpose-driven design always points to intelligence." If you were actually versed in science [b]beyond[/b] high school level, you would have learned that "the world around us" is NOT well-designed, refuting the very premise of your epiphany.

"I thought about it this way: if you were walking on a deserted island and stumbled upon a system that collected rainwater and stored it in a barrel, you wouldn’t assume it appeared by accident. You’d immediately recognize that an intelligent being must have built it. Structures with purpose don’t arise from random chaos." This is a completely flawed premise to begin with. [/quote]

You still don’t get it, do you? I shared my thought process not as an argument, but to show what led me to seek the church and deeper answers. It wasn’t logic that built my faith—it was experience.

Once I immersed myself in monastic life, I EXPERIENCED God. That EXPERIENCE became the foundation of my faith, not the reasoning that brought me to the monastery. True faith isn’t rooted in logic because logic is too limited. But to understand that, you have to EXPERIENCE it—you can’t simply reason your way to it. I consider myself incredibly fortunate to have had that experience early in life.

I’m well-versed in theology and philosophy and could engage in debate if you were a stronger opponent. But as I’ve said, that’s not the point. Even if my reasoning had been flawed, it wouldn’t change the fact that it led me to faith. And my faith, once again, isn’t based on logic—it’s based on what I’ve lived and encountered.

I think I’ve really spelled it out this time. If you still don’t get it - just don't worry about it:) [/quote]

TLDR summary: I have a high school science education. Logic and reason are too hard for me. I studied things that aren't real. I had an experience which justifies me defending creationism.

LOL[/quote]

You seemed triggered. If religious talk causes you so much irritation, why not try different forum? In any case, I hope you resolve your traumas or whatever caused it. I wish you well.[/quote]

BS -you don't wish them well, you're being incredibly sarcastic.[/quote]

Why wouldn’t I wish that person well??? They didn’t do anything bad to me, they weren’t even rude. Well, maybe a little, but it wasn’t nice of me to say they are not a worthy debate opponent, so I guess I asked for it.

I just see some pain in their arguments and reactions and wish them to resolve it. Life is short. Don’t spend it on Religion message board, especially if you are not a fan.[/quote]

DP - big "fan" of the topic of religion, not a fan of the religions themselves.  Do you not understand that?

Substitute the word "religion" for "politics" and you will understand slightly better.[/quote]

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