Reply to Study on where DC criminals source illegal guns?

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Most gun crimes are committed by a small number of people who’ve been arrested a million times. Instead of fruitlessly complaining about what other states are doing, we could just convict the bad guys, put them in jail and (here’s the crazy part) leave them in jail.  Google people on trial in DC. Their rap sheets are astounding.[/quote]

I follow the police experts and research rather than random folks posting on DCUM.  [/quote]

You don’t - you just cherry pick selected evidence that already accords with your opinion.

Trying to control gun crime by reducing supply instead of punishing people who illegally carry/use guns is a fools errand that doesn’t pass the common sense test. There are almost 400 million firearms estimated to be circulating in the US, with almost 10 million more being added to the supply each year. We don’t have walls or checkpoints around American states and cities which allow us to search all the vehicles going in and out. You aren’t going to stop circulation of guns in this country. It’s fine to try to crack down on straw purchases, I favor it, but to think it will be anywhere close to as effective as cracking down on illegal users of guns is foolish. [/quote]

Actually what I support the most is extension of blue state laws at a federal level. It would cut gun crime across the US efficiently (again because it's clear sensible gun legislation works when criminals and even Mexican drug cartels turn to certain specific US states for guns because they can't get them locally because of more stringent laws). Sadly, I don't see it happening in the near future, but I believe future generations will get it done, perhaps in 10-15 years with population trends. That's a separate thread for the political forum.

FWIW saying I believe this does not mean I believe police should be defunded or violent criminals shouldn't be prosecuted and jailed which is clearly a current, local problem. However I do feel the straw purchase issue gets sidelined and ignored when it's multiple pieces to a problem to be addressed. [/quote]

Exactly.  Criminals, gunrunners and cartels will seek out the weakest link where it comes to sourcing guns - and that is going to be whichever state has the weakest, most lax gun laws (invariably red states).[/quote]

The cartels bring millions of pounds of drugs and bus loads of human beings into the US every year. Do you honestly believe that “sensible” gun laws (hundreds of which already exist without even a ding against criminal behavior) will stop them from acquiring (or even manufacturing) firearms somewhere else (say, Central America, the Mid-East, and other war-torn places, not to mention countries that are happy to see the US embroiled in stride) and then importing them into a vast waiting market among the criminal underworld in the US?  “Sensible” laws against interstate sales, against straw purchases, against possession by felons, and against the criminal misuse of firearms already exist at both the federal and state levels.  They clearly don’t solve the problem. Because the problem isn’t inanimate objects you have an unreasoning fear of, grounded in your fear of your own unacknowkedged interior rage and violence. It’s criminals. Deal with the criminals and the problem goes away. [/quote]

Q. If sensible gun laws don't work, why do local criminals source guns far away from red states to get guns?

A. Because local gun laws work.

See research by Baltimore law enforcement that found that if local states added sensible gun laws, Baltimore homicides would drop by 25%.

Backing the blue means not just funding them, but LISTENING TO THEM.[/quote]

Crime predictably follows the path of least resistance. But “sensibly” attempting to close off one avenue by trammeling the rights of the overwhelming percentage of people doesn’t work because the criminal market, like all markets, adapts, and very quickly. Japan is an island with a centuries old anti weapons culture imposed by despots to secure their hold on power. Criminals still get all the guns they want. And nut jobs with political delusions make their own very effective firearms as the recent murder of a former prime minister demonstrates. Prosecute criminals, not objects. [/quote]

Sensible gun laws already exist in some blue states but not many red states. Sensible gun laws don't stop high gun ownership in Switzerland. I'm NOT saying don't prosecute criminals, I'm saying we make it easy for criminals then complain that we have criminals. We wouldn't have to prosecute for as much crime if we made it more difficult to commit in the first place.

Again, you're ignoring the actual data and research that has already showed impact of sensible gun laws on crime. Respond with data, not anecdotes and opinions.[/quote]

People in Switzerland routinely keep government-issued, fully automatic, actual military assault rifles in their homes along with government issued high capacity magazines and high powered anti-personnel ammunition.

Amazingly, these firearms are not misused.

I guess it’s the “sensible” laws. Couldn’t be anything else. [/quote]

"Currently, Swiss legislation bans the use of automatic weapons, silencers, laser sights, and heavy machine guns. The government demands licensing for the acquisition and carrying of any firearm, and requires registration and licenses for ownership of firearms, with some exceptions made for hunting weapons. Practically everyone in Switzerland is trained to use a gun, yes, but that training, as well as the use, storage, and transportation of guns, is very regulated."
https://www.buzzworthy.com/switzerland-gun-laws/[/quote]

I see you carefully left out the part of the article that acknowledges that pretty much all adult men in Switzerland are part of the military reserve and that they are authorized to keep their fully automatic machine guns at home, just as described.[/quote]

No, that's not at all the point you think it is. For one, conscription comes with assessment of fitness for duty. We don't do that for gun owners, so that already is a form of sensible gun ownership legislation. ”satisfying physical, intellectual and mental requirements for military service or civil protection service and being capable of accomplishing these services without harming oneself or others"

Then in addition, those who are actually deemed fit for duty will of course get gun training, something we don't require for all gun owners in the US.

[/quote]

Actually, it’s precisely the point. There are machine guns at peoples’ fingertips in Switzerland, subject to misuse, theft, and everything else, and people aren’t using them to mow each other down. Nor are they using the vast, vast, vast (did I say “vast?”) majority of the millions of firearms in the US to do that.

But you want people who misuse firearms trained to do it better?

The fundamental fallacy of so-called “gun control” is that making something unlawful (say, firearm possession by an unvetted person) unlawful will magically make it vanish. That’s obviously not true. [/quote]

Nobody with a brain believes anything gun crime would vanish whatsoever. Ugh, those points of "it won't go away" are ridiculous.  Nobody is saying there would be an end to gun violence, but less of it, yes. Might knifings go up? Sure but my kid is less likely to get caught in the crossfire. A carjacking isn't as easy with a knife.

Statistical and meaningful reduction in homicides? Absolutely. Switzerland does make this point because EVERYONE is subject to mental health screening whether that's because they are conscripted and undergo mental health screening or because the gun dealer can literally not sell to them because of their suspicion of possible mental issues. The gun dealer can literally consult a national database to check whether this person has been denied gun ownership in the past and for what reason.

You literally overlook existing data that sensible gun laws actually have made a difference. The entire swiss system is set up to vet who gets guns. The US is a free for all in some states.[/quote]

First of all, have you ever seen a knife wound?  Try looking up some pictures if you have a strong stomach. Carjacking happens at contact distance. A knife is as easy as a gun to use as a threat.

“EVERYONE is subject to mental health screening.”

No, EVERYONE is not. The people who choose to break the law obtain and misuse firearms. They’re criminals. That’s what criminals do.

“Reduction” implies there was more of something and then less after some intervention. Switzerland has always been low crime. If anything, the overall level of criminal violence is higher now because of population changes that diluted the homogeneity of the population.

[/quote]

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