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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]So glad we sent all that money over there to Ukraine and for what? Put that money into our cities that need it most. Start cleaning our own sht up. [/quote]

That money is bleeding and hurting Russia.
Money week spent. [/quote]

Meaning you don't really care about helping Ukraine?[/quote]

Bleeding Russia helps Ukraine.[/quote]

It didn't work out this way so far.   Let's put it this way, Ukraine can be hurt very badly while Russia is bleeding out.

Once the settlement is negotiated, you should look at what was proposed in Istanbul two months ago (approx), see if there were any major differences, and then ask yourself - how many people had to die and how much destruction had to happen since Istanbul for the parties to agree to essentially the same thing?[/quote]

What was Putin actually willing to agree to? Be honest.
Nothing. He was happy to talk while his troops repositioned. There was no actual deal on the table.
[/quote]

No one in the general public really knows what was on the table and who walked away from it.  The fog of war is thick with lies on both sides.  I'm going off what was published for all and sundry.

Wait for the settlement and see how much it deviates from Istanbul.  My guess would be not very much. No matter how much you dislike it, if the two are close, that means all the death and destruction that happened since Istanbul could have been prevented.[/quote]

I suppose the death and destruction could have been totally avoided if Ukraine has just submitted.[/quote]

The invasion was criminal and stupid. However, there were many lost opportunities to prevent it that were not, sadly, explored.  [/quote]

Fascinating. Such as? [/quote]

Remember that Zelensky was elected on the platform of bringing peace to Donbass through reconciliation, not military assault.   That didn't happen (although I believe he meant it at the time) because the right wingers made it clear there is to be no rapprochement with Russia whatsoever, and threatened his life if he ventured in that direction.  So that was one lost opportunity.  The Minsk accords, flawed as they were, called for autonomy, not secession, of Donetsk and Lugansk, that were historically pro-Russian and did not support the Maidan movement in any way.  Would it have been so bad to give them a measure of autonomy via a model of a federated government of some sort? Would it have been so bad to give the Russian language some form of protected status with guaranteed education in Russian for those who wanted it?  Most of former USSR republics have Russian-language schools (and they are quite popular with the locals) so why not?

I mean look, I get that you think that's appeasement and bad policy and whatnot.  It was still worth trying to see if this could have prevented the current disaster.  [/quote]

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