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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Is it absolutely certain that pfizer will give 5-11 yr olds 10 mcg? Or is it a good chance they will stick with the 30mcg dose like for everyone else so far? Because there is so much more data for that dose?  Has there been any evidence that the 5-11 yr olds already in the trial who got the 30 mcg did poorly? I thought the myocarditis was just in older than 12yr old boys?  [/quote]

We don't have data for younger kids yet.  But for older individuals, yes, the 12-17 year-old-boy demographic had the highest observed frequency of myocarditis and pericarditis, estimated at &lt;70 cases per million second doses.  Though, that should probably be taken with a grain of salt.  When the VRBPAC discussed this, they noted that it doesn't take much to come back with a finding of myocarditis if you go out looking for one.  So, if they looked harder for it in kids, of course they'd find a lot more there.

And yes, the Pfizer phase 2/3 trials used 10mcg in the 5-11 group, and 3mcg in the &lt;5 group.  [/quote]

nobody was “looking” for the myocarditis - these kids were presenting with chest pain to the ER. And we have no idea what the long-term impacts are of it. [/quote]

Really?  I've gone to the doctor before with chest pain.  Do you know how often I've gotten a cardiac MRI?  Never.  Most cases would never get diagnosed.  But they started doing more cardiac MRIs when reports of myocarditis started coming out, and the cardiac MRI is a much more sensitive instrument than an ECG or echo, or just trying to diagnose off of symptoms.

And while it is technically true that we don't know what the long-term impacts are, that's a very different statement than saying we have reason to actually be worried about long-term impacts.

[/quote]

these were young kids presenting to the ER with unexplained chest pain. I’m not sure they were all dx’ed via an MRI but it absurd to argue that the myodcarditis was some kind of incidental finding.

and of course there’s reason to be concerned about long-term impact. you only have one heart! [/quote]

I wasn't trying to say that I thought they were incidental findings.  Based on the available data, it certainly looks like it was caused by the vaccine (or COVID infections, in other cases).

What I'm saying is that you're going to find a lot more of these cases depending how hard you look.  If you look harder, which includes using more sensitive instruments (like cardiac MRIs), you're going to diagnose a larger percentage of true cases.  This was part of the concern about using this data.  Studies that looked at myocarditis rates diagnosed using cardiac MRIs brought this up, since it found many more cases than other methods would have.  And the VRBPAC brought it up, too.  It just means take the data with a grain of salt, particularly when comparing the observed frequency in young boys to the frequency in older adults. [/quote]

No, you're still misrepresenting this. You're making it sound like they gave cardiac MRIs to all study participants and found extremely  minor cases.  When what actually happened is that kids with serious symptoms showed up at the ER and were found to have myocarditis (unclear if even diagnosed with an MRI).  What's much more likely is that mild cases of myocarditis went unrecorded; not that the cases on record were mild and would not normally have been diagnosed except for additional scrutiny of the vaccines.  [/quote]

First, yes we do know many of these were diagnosed using cardiac MRIs.  As I said before, the VRBPAC brought it up and you can see it in the journal articles referencing these cases.

I didn't say they gave cardiac MRIs to everyone.  I'm suggesting doctors were more likely to order cardiac MRIs on these kids than that would have been earlier in the pandemic because of: 1) early reports of myocarditis in kids after vaccine or infection, and 2) recent journal articles recommending cardiac MRI as a more sensitive tool.

And at least one of those studies on myocarditis (in that case, after infection, rather than vaccination) was recommending cardiac MRIs specifically because it was catching cases that otherwise would have gone undetected.

I'm not sure what you think I'm saying here.  I'm certainly not claiming these were false diagnoses, or that they were incidental to vaccination.  I'm saying the true rate of myocarditis in other groups and situations is likely higher than previously observed.[/quote]

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