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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]My understanding is that Matthew and John, who wrote the 1st and 4th gospels did actually know Jesus, and were eyewitnesses - but if anyone has contrary information I'd be interested in hearing it.[/quote]

That's cute that you think the bible is a reliable historical source.  :lol:

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Not sure what you mean here -- if the question is whether Jesus was an actual historical person, I'd think the gospels of Matthew and John, if they actually were there at the time, tends to shed light on that question unless you believe they were fabricate d out of [b]while cloth[/b].  From what I've read [b]most biblical scholars[/b] deem them authentic.[/quote]

:oops: "whole cloth"[/quote]

I'd be surprised if "most biblical scholars" didn't find them "authentic".  :lol:

But why should anyone care what "most biblical scholars" think?

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For the same reason you would care what anyone who has [b]devoted their life to study of a given subject [/b]would think?

Or is expertise something we openly don't care about in America anymore?[/quote]

Who are these scholars? Bible beaters from random Christian universities. Seems like that might make them a tad biased. Pass.

The fact is there are no independent, reliable sources and no archaeological evidence. So maybe he was a real person, maybe not. We have no way to know for sure.
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Not really.  Multiple historical scholars who are atheists have said that Jesus existed.  [b]It's just a historical fact.[/b][/quote]

Uh, no it's not a "fact", just a theory. There is no evidence that he did (or didn't) exist.

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Actually there is a TON of evidence that Jesus existed.

Why am I even wasting time arguing with someone who can’t be bothered to google this and seems completely ignorant is beyond me.[/quote]

What evidence?

[b]No primary, contemporary accounts. 
No archaeological evidence. [/b]

It's certainly possible that a man named Jesus existed, but there isn't a way to prove it with the information we have today. 
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[b]Some respected scholars say it's likely and that they think so, but none claim it's a sure thing for the simple reason that there is not the type of evidence[/b], highlighted above, that scholars use for proof.

As for Mathew and John -- they are stories that can't be used as "evidence" to prove a fact.  What is factual about those stories is that they both say some similar things about Jesus.   It doesn't make any of those things factual.

[b]Imagine that 1000 years from now, someone finds 2 Harry Potter books from the long since forgotten J. K. Rowling series and determines that Dumbledore is a real place because it's mentioned in two similar stories.[/b][/quote]

EXACTLY
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I find that hard to believe since in 64 AD (about 30 years after Jesus's death) a sect known as the Christians were persecuted by Nero, and that's documented.  In in early 4th century the Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity - so it's not like it took 1000 years to find the documents on which the faith is based.  It spread like wildfire in the years immediately following Jesus's death.  If someone just made the story up it would have had to be an incredibly elaborate hoax.  Possible I guess, but I can't see who would be behind it or why.  Paul?[/quote]

I don't think anyone here is claiming he definitely DIDN'T exist, just that it's not a proven 100% thing. We do know 100% there were Christians and they were pushing their story for many centuries, but we don't know 100% there was a historical Jesus.

Many people believed in the Greek gods - Apollo, Athena, Zeus, etc. So does that mean they are real?

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EXACTLY   and there's no need to think of it as an "incredible hoax" set up to purposely fool people,  but rather a set of stories, like the ones about the Greek gods, that many people believed for years.   The same stories were even taken up by the Roman empire, just changing the names of the gods.

Greek "Mythology" as it's called now, is still taught in the schools - not for people to "believe" in but as ageless stories with valuable lessons. Maybe the same thing will happen someday with Christianity.

Also, you could say that there's plenty of contemporaneous "evidence" for the greek gods, because the ancient greeks and romans carved so many statues of them that are in museums all over the world -- Plus all the temples still standing.  There's lots of evidence for that religion, but no evidence that the stories about their gods are factual.

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