Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Your argument is not sound. Fewer applicants does not suggest anything of the kind, it in fact suggests the opposite; that students are not interested and do not want to apply. And if you want to know the truth as to WHY that is, it is because kids simply do not want to spend their high school hyper focused on academics. Yes, it's uncomfortable for me to say it and for us to accept it, but it is the truth: TJ has a reputation of being extremely challenging academically and few kids outside of the usual TJ demographic are prepared to sacrifice other aspects of their high school experience to go to TJ. The kids know this; they know it means a lot of really hard work and very little time to have fun and socialize, and they are just not interested. It's a choice, there's nothing wrong with it. Simply put, the academic vibe at TJ doesn't jive culturally with most demographics. Even within the Asian community there are kids who shouldn't go but are nevertheless coerced into it by their family.
There is nothing that needs to change at TJ, it is simply a place for those who want to fully devote their high school experience to academics. One doesn't need to engineer artificial situations to make it more desirable for those who don't want to go. Simply make the application process free and socialize it at every school so every student is aware that they can apply if they want to. If students are truly interested, they will come.
But see, it's NOT a place to fully devote your experience to academics. If it were, then TJ shouldn't have all of the tremendous extracurricular opportunities that it has. The problem that exists is because you have all of these students and parents who feel like that's what it's about, a narrative is created that just isn't the case and dissuades students who are interested in having a comprehensive high school experience from applying.
And that's by design! It benefits the parents who want to keep TJ more easily accessible to dissuade others from applying. It benefits the parents who prefer that TJ remain predominantly Indian to make it sound like TJ is this impossible grind that's unattractive to students who aren't a part of their community or don't subscribe to their idea of what constitutes a good student. You've seen on these boards - there is a very distinct animus that exists between certain elements of the Asian community against Black and Hispanic students. They prefer that their kids not be friends with those kids, and they won't let their kids date them either.
Reality check: Indian parents don't want their kids dating ANYONE.
PP. True enough, but the point still stands. They don't want their kids associating with Black kids at all, to an extent that isn't universal but is EXTREMELY problematic. It's also worth mentioning that this issue largely only exists with parents who did not grow up in America. But it's a topic of significant conversation among TJ students.
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Your argument is not sound. Fewer applicants does not suggest anything of the kind, it in fact suggests the opposite; that students are not interested and do not want to apply. And if you want to know the truth as to WHY that is, it is because kids simply do not want to spend their high school hyper focused on academics. Yes, it's uncomfortable for me to say it and for us to accept it, but it is the truth: TJ has a reputation of being extremely challenging academically and few kids outside of the usual TJ demographic are prepared to sacrifice other aspects of their high school experience to go to TJ. The kids know this; they know it means a lot of really hard work and very little time to have fun and socialize, and they are just not interested. It's a choice, there's nothing wrong with it. Simply put, the academic vibe at TJ doesn't jive culturally with most demographics. Even within the Asian community there are kids who shouldn't go but are nevertheless coerced into it by their family.
There is nothing that needs to change at TJ, it is simply a place for those who want to fully devote their high school experience to academics. One doesn't need to engineer artificial situations to make it more desirable for those who don't want to go. Simply make the application process free and socialize it at every school so every student is aware that they can apply if they want to. If students are truly interested, they will come.
But see, it's NOT a place to fully devote your experience to academics. If it were, then TJ shouldn't have all of the tremendous extracurricular opportunities that it has. The problem that exists is because you have all of these students and parents who feel like that's what it's about, a narrative is created that just isn't the case and dissuades students who are interested in having a comprehensive high school experience from applying.
And that's by design! It benefits the parents who want to keep TJ more easily accessible to dissuade others from applying. It benefits the parents who prefer that TJ remain predominantly Indian to make it sound like TJ is this impossible grind that's unattractive to students who aren't a part of their community or don't subscribe to their idea of what constitutes a good student. You've seen on these boards - there is a very distinct animus that exists between certain elements of the Asian community against Black and Hispanic students. They prefer that their kids not be friends with those kids, and they won't let their kids date them either.
Reality check: Indian parents don't want their kids dating ANYONE.
PP. True enough, but the point still stands. They don't want their kids associating with Black kids at all, to an extent that isn't universal but is EXTREMELY problematic. It's also worth mentioning that this issue largely only exists with parents who did not grow up in America. But it's a topic of significant conversation among TJ students.
I think TJ kids are smart enough to do what they want with whom they want but YMMV.
Anonymous wrote:That's not what I said at all. I said he was accepted and declined. He felt the kids he knew in the program were hyper-competitive and backstabbing. Also, he's a URM and maybe he felt he'd face racial bias, but I don't know. Instead, he elected to attend an elite private.
You can't accepted without applying. Either what the previous person asked is correct, or this student applied while thinking the school was toxic.
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
You say this as if it’s indisputably true, but I think it’s what you desperately want people to believe, based on how you’ve idealized your own past experience, rather than what is actually true now. TJ could disappear tomorrow and 99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools (and might pick up some valuable social skills along the way).
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
You say this as if it’s indisputably true, but I think it’s what you desperately want people to believe, based on how you’ve idealized your own past experience, rather than what is actually true now. TJ could disappear tomorrow and 99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools (and might pick up some valuable social skills along the way).
DP with both past and present TJ experience. They're right and you're WAY wrong.
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
You say this as if it’s indisputably true, but I think it’s what you desperately want people to believe, based on how you’ve idealized your own past experience, rather than what is actually true now. TJ could disappear tomorrow and 99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools (and might pick up some valuable social skills along the way).
I'm the poster you're responding to. You are not thinking about things correctly, and here's why: Your whole comment seems to hinge on student outcome, i.e "99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools". This is very likely true, but this is not at all important! The whole purpose of TJ's existence is to go beyond (way beyond in many cases) to what is being taught in area schools. Students effectively have the option of taking college level classes and coming out with an invaluable experience. This is in no way, shape, or form, replicable in the current FCPS environment; not even close. It wouldn't even make sense to attempt it due to logistics and cost (those who argue making those courses/labs available to everyone are full of wishful thinking, but in reality it's cost prohibitive unless it just involves an online zoom session).
As I tried to stress in my prior posts, TJ is valuable not because of grades and college outcomes, but because of the learning opportunities and environment one is exposed to. Kids are only limited academically by what their peers and teachers wish to teach, or group to start, or by how far/how much they want to learn. If you don't believe this, take a look at all the math/science related extracurricular activities outside of the classes.
And in what world do you think teens don't socialize with each other? Maybe the medium is not as sporty as in other schools (i.e on the 3 hour bus rides to weekly games), but if you imagine that TJ kids are automatons who don't speak to each other, you are really in denial. You should go visit the school and actually talk to students in real life, or listen to an occasional presentation before you judge their social skills.
Let's put it this way: For many entry level jobs I would rather hire interns from TJ vs other folks with extra years of experience. And it's not a cost issue; I would pay them the same salary. There is a higher probability that the work the TJ crowd does is done in an elegant and efficient fashion.
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
You say this as if it’s indisputably true, but I think it’s what you desperately want people to believe, based on how you’ve idealized your own past experience, rather than what is actually true now. TJ could disappear tomorrow and 99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools (and might pick up some valuable social skills along the way).
I'm the poster you're responding to. You are not thinking about things correctly, and here's why: Your whole comment seems to hinge on student outcome, i.e "99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools". This is very likely true, but this is not at all important! The whole purpose of TJ's existence is to go beyond (way beyond in many cases) to what is being taught in area schools. Students effectively have the option of taking college level classes and coming out with an invaluable experience. This is in no way, shape, or form, replicable in the current FCPS environment; not even close. It wouldn't even make sense to attempt it due to logistics and cost (those who argue making those courses/labs available to everyone are full of wishful thinking, but in reality it's cost prohibitive unless it just involves an online zoom session).
As I tried to stress in my prior posts, TJ is valuable not because of grades and college outcomes, but because of the learning opportunities and environment one is exposed to. Kids are only limited academically by what their peers and teachers wish to teach, or group to start, or by how far/how much they want to learn. If you don't believe this, take a look at all the math/science related extracurricular activities outside of the classes.
And in what world do you think teens don't socialize with each other? Maybe the medium is not as sporty as in other schools (i.e on the 3 hour bus rides to weekly games), but if you imagine that TJ kids are automatons who don't speak to each other, you are really in denial. You should go visit the school and actually talk to students in real life, or listen to an occasional presentation before you judge their social skills.
Let's put it this way: For many entry level jobs I would rather hire interns from TJ vs other folks with extra years of experience. And it's not a cost issue; I would pay them the same salary. There is a higher probability that the work the TJ crowd does is done in an elegant and efficient fashion.
You’re a broken record rehashing the same arguments to make yourself feel special. People in hiring positions care very little about where kids went to HS, and for good reason.
The more I read of your narcissistic preening the more convinced I am that FCPS would do the county a big favor by returning TJ to its original use.
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
You say this as if it’s indisputably true, but I think it’s what you desperately want people to believe, based on how you’ve idealized your own past experience, rather than what is actually true now. TJ could disappear tomorrow and 99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools (and might pick up some valuable social skills along the way).
I'm the poster you're responding to. You are not thinking about things correctly, and here's why: Your whole comment seems to hinge on student outcome, i.e "99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools". This is very likely true, but this is not at all important! The whole purpose of TJ's existence is to go beyond (way beyond in many cases) to what is being taught in area schools. Students effectively have the option of taking college level classes and coming out with an invaluable experience. This is in no way, shape, or form, replicable in the current FCPS environment; not even close. It wouldn't even make sense to attempt it due to logistics and cost (those who argue making those courses/labs available to everyone are full of wishful thinking, but in reality it's cost prohibitive unless it just involves an online zoom session).
As I tried to stress in my prior posts, TJ is valuable not because of grades and college outcomes, but because of the learning opportunities and environment one is exposed to. Kids are only limited academically by what their peers and teachers wish to teach, or group to start, or by how far/how much they want to learn. If you don't believe this, take a look at all the math/science related extracurricular activities outside of the classes.
And in what world do you think teens don't socialize with each other? Maybe the medium is not as sporty as in other schools (i.e on the 3 hour bus rides to weekly games), but if you imagine that TJ kids are automatons who don't speak to each other, you are really in denial. You should go visit the school and actually talk to students in real life, or listen to an occasional presentation before you judge their social skills.
Let's put it this way: For many entry level jobs I would rather hire interns from TJ vs other folks with extra years of experience. And it's not a cost issue; I would pay them the same salary. There is a higher probability that the work the TJ crowd does is done in an elegant and efficient fashion.
You’re a broken record rehashing the same arguments to make yourself feel special. People in hiring positions care very little about where kids went to HS, and for good reason.
The more I read of your narcissistic preening the more convinced I am that FCPS would do the county a big favor by returning TJ to its original use.
DP. If no one cares about where a kid went to HS, then why do you care so much?
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
You say this as if it’s indisputably true, but I think it’s what you desperately want people to believe, based on how you’ve idealized your own past experience, rather than what is actually true now. TJ could disappear tomorrow and 99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools (and might pick up some valuable social skills along the way).
I'm the poster you're responding to. You are not thinking about things correctly, and here's why: Your whole comment seems to hinge on student outcome, i.e "99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools". This is very likely true, but this is not at all important! The whole purpose of TJ's existence is to go beyond (way beyond in many cases) to what is being taught in area schools. Students effectively have the option of taking college level classes and coming out with an invaluable experience. This is in no way, shape, or form, replicable in the current FCPS environment; not even close. It wouldn't even make sense to attempt it due to logistics and cost (those who argue making those courses/labs available to everyone are full of wishful thinking, but in reality it's cost prohibitive unless it just involves an online zoom session).
As I tried to stress in my prior posts, TJ is valuable not because of grades and college outcomes, but because of the learning opportunities and environment one is exposed to. Kids are only limited academically by what their peers and teachers wish to teach, or group to start, or by how far/how much they want to learn. If you don't believe this, take a look at all the math/science related extracurricular activities outside of the classes.
And in what world do you think teens don't socialize with each other? Maybe the medium is not as sporty as in other schools (i.e on the 3 hour bus rides to weekly games), but if you imagine that TJ kids are automatons who don't speak to each other, you are really in denial. You should go visit the school and actually talk to students in real life, or listen to an occasional presentation before you judge their social skills.
Let's put it this way: For many entry level jobs I would rather hire interns from TJ vs other folks with extra years of experience. And it's not a cost issue; I would pay them the same salary. There is a higher probability that the work the TJ crowd does is done in an elegant and efficient fashion.
You’re a broken record rehashing the same arguments to make yourself feel special. People in hiring positions care very little about where kids went to HS, and for good reason.
The more I read of your narcissistic preening the more convinced I am that FCPS would do the county a big favor by returning TJ to its original use.
DP. You made no point here and you’re still wrong.
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
You say this as if it’s indisputably true, but I think it’s what you desperately want people to believe, based on how you’ve idealized your own past experience, rather than what is actually true now. TJ could disappear tomorrow and 99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools (and might pick up some valuable social skills along the way).
I'm the poster you're responding to. You are not thinking about things correctly, and here's why: Your whole comment seems to hinge on student outcome, i.e "99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools". This is very likely true, but this is not at all important! The whole purpose of TJ's existence is to go beyond (way beyond in many cases) to what is being taught in area schools. Students effectively have the option of taking college level classes and coming out with an invaluable experience. This is in no way, shape, or form, replicable in the current FCPS environment; not even close. It wouldn't even make sense to attempt it due to logistics and cost (those who argue making those courses/labs available to everyone are full of wishful thinking, but in reality it's cost prohibitive unless it just involves an online zoom session).
As I tried to stress in my prior posts, TJ is valuable not because of grades and college outcomes, but because of the learning opportunities and environment one is exposed to. Kids are only limited academically by what their peers and teachers wish to teach, or group to start, or by how far/how much they want to learn. If you don't believe this, take a look at all the math/science related extracurricular activities outside of the classes.
And in what world do you think teens don't socialize with each other? Maybe the medium is not as sporty as in other schools (i.e on the 3 hour bus rides to weekly games), but if you imagine that TJ kids are automatons who don't speak to each other, you are really in denial. You should go visit the school and actually talk to students in real life, or listen to an occasional presentation before you judge their social skills.
Let's put it this way: For many entry level jobs I would rather hire interns from TJ vs other folks with extra years of experience. And it's not a cost issue; I would pay them the same salary. There is a higher probability that the work the TJ crowd does is done in an elegant and efficient fashion.
You’re a broken record rehashing the same arguments to make yourself feel special. People in hiring positions care very little about where kids went to HS, and for good reason.
The more I read of your narcissistic preening the more convinced I am that FCPS would do the county a big favor by returning TJ to its original use.
DP. You made no point here and you’re still wrong.
The point is clear: TJ is largely a temple to the narcissism of its alumni, who insist on its singularity and necessary largely because they peaked in high school.
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
You say this as if it’s indisputably true, but I think it’s what you desperately want people to believe, based on how you’ve idealized your own past experience, rather than what is actually true now. TJ could disappear tomorrow and 99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools (and might pick up some valuable social skills along the way).
I'm the poster you're responding to. You are not thinking about things correctly, and here's why: Your whole comment seems to hinge on student outcome, i.e "99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools". This is very likely true, but this is not at all important! The whole purpose of TJ's existence is to go beyond (way beyond in many cases) to what is being taught in area schools. Students effectively have the option of taking college level classes and coming out with an invaluable experience. This is in no way, shape, or form, replicable in the current FCPS environment; not even close. It wouldn't even make sense to attempt it due to logistics and cost (those who argue making those courses/labs available to everyone are full of wishful thinking, but in reality it's cost prohibitive unless it just involves an online zoom session).
As I tried to stress in my prior posts, TJ is valuable not because of grades and college outcomes, but because of the learning opportunities and environment one is exposed to. Kids are only limited academically by what their peers and teachers wish to teach, or group to start, or by how far/how much they want to learn. If you don't believe this, take a look at all the math/science related extracurricular activities outside of the classes.
And in what world do you think teens don't socialize with each other? Maybe the medium is not as sporty as in other schools (i.e on the 3 hour bus rides to weekly games), but if you imagine that TJ kids are automatons who don't speak to each other, you are really in denial. You should go visit the school and actually talk to students in real life, or listen to an occasional presentation before you judge their social skills.
Let's put it this way: For many entry level jobs I would rather hire interns from TJ vs other folks with extra years of experience. And it's not a cost issue; I would pay them the same salary. There is a higher probability that the work the TJ crowd does is done in an elegant and efficient fashion.
You’re a broken record rehashing the same arguments to make yourself feel special. People in hiring positions care very little about where kids went to HS, and for good reason.
The more I read of your narcissistic preening the more convinced I am that FCPS would do the county a big favor by returning TJ to its original use.
DP. You made no point here and you’re still wrong.
The point is clear: TJ is largely a temple to the narcissism of its alumni, who insist on its singularity and necessary largely because they peaked in high school.
Why such negativity? Try to express your thoughts a bit more clearly rather than sounding like a temple of hot air.
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
You say this as if it’s indisputably true, but I think it’s what you desperately want people to believe, based on how you’ve idealized your own past experience, rather than what is actually true now. TJ could disappear tomorrow and 99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools (and might pick up some valuable social skills along the way).
I'm the poster you're responding to. You are not thinking about things correctly, and here's why: Your whole comment seems to hinge on student outcome, i.e "99% of the kids there would do just as well at their base schools". This is very likely true, but this is not at all important! The whole purpose of TJ's existence is to go beyond (way beyond in many cases) to what is being taught in area schools. Students effectively have the option of taking college level classes and coming out with an invaluable experience. This is in no way, shape, or form, replicable in the current FCPS environment; not even close. It wouldn't even make sense to attempt it due to logistics and cost (those who argue making those courses/labs available to everyone are full of wishful thinking, but in reality it's cost prohibitive unless it just involves an online zoom session).
As I tried to stress in my prior posts, TJ is valuable not because of grades and college outcomes, but because of the learning opportunities and environment one is exposed to. Kids are only limited academically by what their peers and teachers wish to teach, or group to start, or by how far/how much they want to learn. If you don't believe this, take a look at all the math/science related extracurricular activities outside of the classes.
And in what world do you think teens don't socialize with each other? Maybe the medium is not as sporty as in other schools (i.e on the 3 hour bus rides to weekly games), but if you imagine that TJ kids are automatons who don't speak to each other, you are really in denial. You should go visit the school and actually talk to students in real life, or listen to an occasional presentation before you judge their social skills.
Let's put it this way: For many entry level jobs I would rather hire interns from TJ vs other folks with extra years of experience. And it's not a cost issue; I would pay them the same salary. There is a higher probability that the work the TJ crowd does is done in an elegant and efficient fashion.
You’re a broken record rehashing the same arguments to make yourself feel special. People in hiring positions care very little about where kids went to HS, and for good reason.
The more I read of your narcissistic preening the more convinced I am that FCPS would do the county a big favor by returning TJ to its original use.
DP. You made no point here and you’re still wrong.
The point is clear: TJ is largely a temple to the narcissism of its alumni, who insist on its singularity and necessary largely because they peaked in high school.
Do you have any evidence to support this point at all, or is it just wishful thinking from someone who is clutching at sour grapes?
Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
How good of a fit is it for the kids who weren't smart enough and/or motivated enough to take Algebra before 8th grade? TJ is letting a lot of those kids in these days.
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Anonymous wrote:DC is a rising 7th grader, will be in Algebra 1 and is generally a strong student. He will apply for TJ but if not accepted then he will be equally happy at McLean HS as well.
I am just trying to gauge realistic chances, I googled and it said 62 kids but then on this board someone mentioned 42, I would appreciate if someone can share the correct number. TIA!
Seems like Longfellow kids have some of the best odds of any school!
No... quite literally the exact opposite. If one takes a randomly chosen applicant from the FCPS pool, applying from Longfellow is one of the worst odds as there is a very, very small chance the applicant would fall in the top 1.5%. Take a randomly chosen applicant and send them from Poe MS, then there is a higher probability that they would fall into the top 1.5% of reserved seats.
The odds of getting into TJ from Longfellow were higher than from any other AAP center with a substantial number of TJ applicants, at least last year, as the prior post indicates.
There are some middle schools that only had a limited number of applicants to TJ in the Class of 2026. Schools with less than 20 applicants included Stone (11), Whitman (13), Herndon (15), Liberty (16), and Poe (17). So, depending on the number of kids at those schools who ended up admitted to TJ, either based on the 1.5% set aside or from the residual pool, the admissions rate from some of those schools likely was higher than the rate at Longfellow (26.2%). But then, if you don't get into TJ, you don't have McLean as your back-up option.
I have no idea how they determine top students at Longfellow or anywhere else. My kid is a freshman at mclean. He probably would have gotten into TJ on the old system (he just kills math tests - no idea why). He had all A’s in honors classes at Longfellow. I look at his friend group who also didn’t get into TJ and there are some strong science/math kids there. But the kids that did go to TJ also appear to be strong students - so no complaints on quality of the class. He’s having a great experience at McLean. Your kid will be fine either way.
Between all the grade inflation and application gaming, it's difficult for them to differentiate students beyond a point. Regardless, I'm sure there are many equally strong opportunities available at McLean. One of my kid's is applying next year. They're a total rockstar. Won all kinds of math awards at the state level even. Straight A's in the highest track etc, but I realize it's kind of a crap shoot. Still I'm not really clear whether they'd really be better off at TJ. Their homeschool Langlely is also great so either way I'm fine with however way it goes.
Just math awards does not get the kid to get into TJ. If you look at scoring rubric, 1/3 score is gpa, 1/3 is SPS answers, 1/3 is stem problem and writing the answer. If the kid can solve problem but is a poor writer, they won’t make it
Either way the suggestion that the new system introduces more uncertainty into the process is correct. The net result is that people are less inclined to believe the top candidates are being admitted to TJ and more inclined to shrug when their kid doesn’t get in. Maybe that’s what FCPS wanted.
If by uncertainty, you mean fairness then I agree.
I don't mean that. It's a more subjective process, borne of pandering for political gain, with a not-so-healthy dose of anti-Asian bias tossed into the mix.
Wasn’t it meant to address cheating on an entrance test?
You can’t be that naive.
I know! For years families were gaming admissions which culminated in some prep centers creating question banks so their customers would effectively have early access to the test. These affluent families would buy their way into TJ. So glad they put an end to the cheating with the improved selection criteria. It's also greatly reduced the toxicity at TJ and helped foster a collegial atmosphere.
No one was able to buy their way into TJ.
The "improved" selection criteria is a pork-barrel approach that guarantees seats to schools regardless of whether the students from those schools are the highest achieving in the region or possess the greatest STEM aptitude. It's diminished TJ's reputation and invited debates among current TJ freshmen and sophomores as to which students truly belong there, and which students simply got into because they were among the small number of applicants from schools that weren't AAP centers and generally don't elicit much interest in TJ.
Curious how the old process is guarantee students who got in are posses the greatest STEM aptitude and are the highest achieving student?
Nothing is guaranteed, but they looked at awards won and extracurriculars. Someone who made state MathCounts or USAJMO in 7th grade(about 10 in the entire country) would not be rejected like they have been the past few years.
Someone keeps bringing up USAJMO as though it should be a golden ticket into TJ. There is a lot more to being a strong contributor to a full-service elite high school than scoring well in a math competition.
+1, it's not a good idea to have any single accomplishment or background serve as a slam-dunk guarantee into TJ. If there is, you can be assured that striver families will move heaven and earth and sacrifice any amount of their child's well-being that is necessary to get them in. That's why I like the new admissions process; there is no golden path.
In vast majority of the cases, you have a very valid point that no single achievement should as a slam-dunk. I agree with that in general.
There are a few exceptions like USAJMO. You do need to understand what it entails - and no just reading up online about it does not tell you much, you need to actually experience something like that. It is like saying a two time MVP in NBA should not be an automatic choice for the next season. Dont go too deep into this analogy, just trying to make a point about the level of significance of USAJMO at a young age.
Someone who is or was even close to qualifying for USAJMO by 8th grade should be an automatic admit to TJ. We are talking about maybe 20 kids across the entire nation, forget Virginia. No you cannot just prep to it.
Serious question: why? What evidence does that one achievement give that a student will be a superior contributor to the overall environment?
What evidence is there that the existing "tests" for TJ will be a superior contributor?
What evidence do you have that such a student would not be a superior contributor to the overall environment? As I mentioned when you have no idea what it takes to get to that level, you end with questions like yours.
No one has really explained either what it means to make a superior contribution to the overall environment. It's a matter of opinion so you can just say whatever you want.
It's a matter of opinion because for each student, it is different. For some, it might be providing a unique perspective to classroom discussions. For others, it might be (in the case of TJ) the ability to give your friends a memorable moment through a performance at I-Nite. For still others, it might be genuinely caring about the experience that others are having within the academic environment, and working towards lifting others up instead of relentlessly comparing oneself to others. Or perhaps it's the ability contribute to an athletic team (like the 2008 boys soccer state champions) that raises the profile of the school.
TJ isn't an academy - it's a full service high school. If it wants to genuinely attract the best and brightest - something it hasn't done for decades given the decline in application numbers - then it needs to be a place where the best and brightest of all types and backgrounds WANT to go. Otherwise it will continue to top flawed ranking systems that overselect for test-taking ability while continuing to fail to produce much in terms of real STEM impact.
What the heck? You truly believe that a kid who "makes a memorable moment" or is a decent athlete is contributing something important to the school, but the kid who is winning a bunch of awards with the TJ Math team and making the school recognized on a national stage isn't? That is some grade A crazy mental gymnastics there.
The USAJMO thing is a red herring anyway. The number of 7th or 8th graders in the TJ catchment who qualify for JMO is miniscule. There's at best one kid every handful of years. It would be impossible for anyone to make any sweeping statements about whether kids like that contribute positively to TJ, as there are so very, very few. Unless something is majorly wrong with the kid's application, any kid who has the mathematical skills and motivation to qualify for JMO in middle school absolutely belongs at TJ. From Day 1 of 9th grade, that kid would be one of the top kids on the TJ math team, and thus they'd be guaranteed to make a positive contribution to TJ.
TJ doesn't need any help being recognized on a national stage. They need a lot of help being seen as a desirable destination for students in the Northern Virginia area among non-Asian communities.
We have nearly three times as many students in the catchment area as we had in 2000, but fewer applicants to TJ year over year than we did at that point. That's a problem and suggests strongly that the school isn't getting the students it should.
Many highly qualified kids don't want to attend TJ, simply because they and their parents understand that they'll get better college admissions if they're at the top of their base school than they get if they're middle of the pack at TJ. Some others don't want to attend because it's too much work. These aren't problems that need to be solved.
Or maybe they and their parents are just tired of the constant politics around TJ and know they won’t have to put up with the nonsense at their base schools. TJ has become something between a punching bag and a joke.
This argument doesn't make sense. There is likely a lot LESS politics at TJ than around your typical high school. The only politics is conversations and culture wars about TJ, click bait politics about TJ in the news (whether for or against changes, etc), but this is all irrelevant to any family with kids attending TJ. Most kids or families at TJ could care less about other people's politics about their school. If someone wants to apply and attend TJ, they do it for their own situation and personal reasons, not because they're being influenced by politics, which is just noise.
It makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider the declining interest and number of applications to this school.
The declining interest in not at all because of politics. The declining interest is because TJ is deemed too competitive and not many kids are ready to devote 4 years of high school commuting to another school to be immersed in academics
And see, this is where I take issue. There is functionally no difference between the TJ experience of 15, 20, 25 years ago and the experience of today EXCEPT for the attitudes of students and their families.
If the attitudes of students and their families is what is dissuading kids from applying to TJ, and therefore watering down the applicant pool and eventual group of students selected, then the Admissions Office needs to take a hard look at who they're admitting to the school. There's no excuse for application numbers to be below 4-5000 given the growth in the area.
Right but applications should be an easy fix; market and increase awareness at every middle school. Send flyers about any TJ events such as the yearly Techstravaganza event where everyone can go check out all the exhibits and get excited about the school. And make applications free if they are not. All this if done, would vastly outweigh any kind of noise posted about TJ being 'toxic' on these boards; as the visibility is much wider.
In my honest opinion, I think the real culprit today vs 20 years back is that students and parents are more privileged; in the sense that they want more things "for free" or closer to free as before. They realize that TJ is not a golden ticket to a top college even though it could be amazing academically. 20 years ago, students on average were more curious about learning new things. Today on average they are less curious and more focused on "how do I get from A to B as quickly as possible" instead of "how do I learn as much as possible". With the former attitude, TJ doesn't make sense anymore; it's too much work compared to more or less coasting at a base school and being close to home. I agree with you though, that the negative "Asian cutthroat environment" stereotype doesn't help either (and this was different 20 years ago, Asians were not a majority yet).
Personally for someone who wants to learn as much as possible and is genuinely interested in math and science, TJ is a no brainer, it operates in a different ballpark than normal high schools.
Given how the TJ graduates that I know have fared post-TJ, I’m not convinced that the TJ experience is appreciably better than attending a strong base school, which has its own advantages in terms of socialization, convenience and sense of community. I do sense that some alumni may not have much on their resumes that’s better than having attended TJ, and it’s critical to this community to tout the school’s alleged advantages, and even as overall interest in the school wanes.
They keep trying out different narratives, whether it’s the notion that TJ is a community of self-selected, quirky kids; that it’s an important instrument of social mobility; or that the current admissions process has somehow actually led to a stronger student body than in the past. Mostly they just create noise to try and perpetuate a school that at this juncture could probably be put to other and better uses with far less drama.
For a kid genuinely interested in math and science and willing and able to take advantage of the numerous post AP electives that are offered with experienced teachers who majored in their field and with tiny classes and strong peer group? TJ is a far better choice, it's not even close. It's an even better experience than college since those classes are typically small.
For a kid who did not 100% want to go of their own accord and is mostly motivated by grades in order to please their parents and get into a good college, but not really interested in learning? Yeah sure, TJ may not be a great place compared to a good base school.
Also keep in mind that kids can change during the high school years, Unmotivated freshmen/sophomores can become highly motivated and inspired in their upper years and vice-versa (some can burn out by graduation).
How good of a fit is it for the kids who weren't smart enough and/or motivated enough to take Algebra before 8th grade? TJ is letting a lot of those kids in these days.
It's probably a struggle initially as the kids might feel a lot of pressure or might feel like they are 'behind', in the sense they are not as accelerated as most of the other students. But it can be overcome if they are motivated and work extra hard on their assignments, go in to extra help when it's offered, always ask lots of questions to their teachers (and write down all the questions they have when stuck on homework problems), etc.
It's not really as much about specific content (aka algebra 1, etc) as it is about learning how to problem solve. Unlike base schools, TJ will test a lot more problem solving abilities (i.e being able to apply the concepts to problems in a non-standard, nonlinear, non plug and chug way), so it is critical that the students who have not been exposed to much problem solving, work on a lot of extra problems when they enter. Once they have that problem solving base built up, I believe they should be fine in the TJ environment.
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