Someone explain the new Loudoun, Valor, GF thing to me?

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[Post New]02/06/2023 20:33
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soccer197
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soccerNOVA wrote:
Pepe wrote:Beyond necessary. DMV area was so concentrated with clubs. Clubs from Dallas, LA, and NY to name a few have fewer clubs that our area did. Working well for VDA, others followed. Clubs get more players, higher quality, better training in long run. There is no con to any of this for the players and clubs.


We’re still in a soccer hotbed. Just a couple of teams would make NOVA teams great, but travel to practice would be a nightmare for some families. I like the consolidation, but it’s not necessary to go that far. Consider that on the girls side all 5 NOVA teams are in the top 6 teams in ECNL at the U13 age group. That’s the first year things have been settled with the semi-recent promotion of Loudoun to ECNL, and the more recent consolidations leading to Union and Brave.

Things are more uneven in the boys side, but that’s because MLS Next has two teams that attract players in addition to the 5 ECNL clubs - and Alexandria and Springfield happen to be right next to each other.

If NOVA youth soccer was starting from scratch and I could align teams however I wanted, I’d make 4 top league county teams for both boys and girls. Those would go in Arlington, Fairfax, Loudoun, and Prince William. And they would all start at U13 and not be affiliated with youth programs whose missions should be different.


A hotbed? Really? What makes you determine that? California and Texas are soccer hotbeds. NOVA, like every other densely populated area with lots of affluence, produces plenty of players. Philly, Boston, Charlotte, NY/NJ, Atlanta, South Florida are also “hotbeds”
[Post New]02/07/2023 06:21
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TedLasso
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Blutarski wrote:
TedLasso wrote:
Youth soccer would be so much better if there was pro/rel throughout but there's way too many different leagues/clubs currently to pull that off.


TedLasso, why would youth soccer be so much better with pro/rel ?


I definitely don't know or have all the answers, nor do I know what the silver bullet is. What I do know is that the current landscape is a huge and there are far too many clubs and leagues nationwide even for 'national' programs/leagues. A good article about this came out when the DA folded but still within there you can see why it would be difficult to solve this problem we have.

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2020/4/16/21223638/us-soccer-development-academy-closed-coronavirus-mens-womens-national-teams
[Post New]02/07/2023 09:55
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Lasso_FC_Girls
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TedLasso wrote:
Blutarski wrote:
TedLasso wrote:
Youth soccer would be so much better if there was pro/rel throughout but there's way too many different leagues/clubs currently to pull that off.


TedLasso, why would youth soccer be so much better with pro/rel ?


I definitely don't know or have all the answers, nor do I know what the silver bullet is. What I do know is that the current landscape is a huge and there are far too many clubs and leagues nationwide even for 'national' programs/leagues. A good article about this came out when the DA folded but still within there you can see why it would be difficult to solve this problem we have.

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2020/4/16/21223638/us-soccer-development-academy-closed-coronavirus-mens-womens-national-teams


IMO, the ONLY way it could happen is if somehow all the leagues merged and manage it from there. ECNL, GA, and USYS for girls all together and MLS, ECNL, and USYS for boys. Unfortunetely this will never ever happen.

What can happen on the girls side though is GA folding and both ECNL and USYS split the teams involved. I don't consider ECNL and ECNL RL a pro system and USYS E64 vs. USYS P.RO. is confusing to me. I think if ECNL were to start a 3rd teir division, it could implement a relegation system. USYS could re-organize the system it has in place to a relegation system E64>P.R.O.>DPL/EDP. I think E64 is just Clubs chosen by USYS?

Boys is a little tougher because I don't see MLS Next or ECNL going anywhere and when you add in USYS, it gets very complicated.

The other huge hurdle is ideally you want to relegate by age group. Since the Elite leagues travel to other states and have long commutes, relegating an age group to play against an opponent that could be 300 miles away from another age group that could possibly share the same coach would make things impossible.

As for NVA Alliance, I don't see much of an impact. Smart parents are going to take their kids to the coach and system they feel is a better fit even if it means driving 45 minutes. Parents who are not concerned are going to go the most convenient. Everyone mentions VDA but forgets QP has a major recruiting oppurtunity in HP Elite training business which is a perfect example of some families willing to travel versus those who don't. NVA will certainly have larger pool to pull from and I think it will help the younger ages even more than it has already, but let's face it, a lot of players start leaving at or before U13 for reasons that I can only assume, and you know what happens when you assume.
[Post New]02/07/2023 10:32
quote
soccer_dc
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Lasso_FC_Girls wrote:
TedLasso wrote:
Blutarski wrote:
TedLasso wrote:
Youth soccer would be so much better if there was pro/rel throughout but there's way too many different leagues/clubs currently to pull that off.


TedLasso, why would youth soccer be so much better with pro/rel ?


I definitely don't know or have all the answers, nor do I know what the silver bullet is. What I do know is that the current landscape is a huge and there are far too many clubs and leagues nationwide even for 'national' programs/leagues. A good article about this came out when the DA folded but still within there you can see why it would be difficult to solve this problem we have.

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2020/4/16/21223638/us-soccer-development-academy-closed-coronavirus-mens-womens-national-teams


IMO, the ONLY way it could happen is if somehow all the leagues merged and manage it from there. ECNL, GA, and USYS for girls all together and MLS, ECNL, and USYS for boys. Unfortunetely this will never ever happen.

What can happen on the girls side though is GA folding and both ECNL and USYS split the teams involved. I don't consider ECNL and ECNL RL a pro system and USYS E64 vs. USYS P.RO. is confusing to me. I think if ECNL were to start a 3rd teir division, it could implement a relegation system. USYS could re-organize the system it has in place to a relegation system E64>P.R.O.>DPL/EDP. I think E64 is just Clubs chosen by USYS?

Boys is a little tougher because I don't see MLS Next or ECNL going anywhere and when you add in USYS, it gets very complicated.

The other huge hurdle is ideally you want to relegate by age group. Since the Elite leagues travel to other states and have long commutes, relegating an age group to play against an opponent that could be 300 miles away from another age group that could possibly share the same coach would make things impossible.

As for NVA Alliance, I don't see much of an impact. Smart parents are going to take their kids to the coach and system they feel is a better fit even if it means driving 45 minutes. Parents who are not concerned are going to go the most convenient. Everyone mentions VDA but forgets QP has a major recruiting oppurtunity in HP Elite training business which is a perfect example of some families willing to travel versus those who don't. NVA will certainly have larger pool to pull from and I think it will help the younger ages even more than it has already, but let's face it, a lot of players start leaving at or before U13 for reasons that I can only assume, and you know what happens when you assume.


The push for a single or fewer national leagues and relegation depends on what purpose and which problem you are trying to solve. If your goal is to find the strongest national youth players to field a national team and a pro league, then single league and pro/rel makes sense. But this is the goal for just a very small minority participating in the current youth system. More than that are those interested in college placement which drives demand for the competing national leagues. Even more than that are just looking for sports activities for their kids. Relegation only serves the very small minority doesn't help the others. The current system is a result of what we are asking for (by directing our dollars and participation), not what someone dreamed up as the perfect system. People want what they want and that will continue to drive the structure of youth soccer.
[Post New]02/07/2023 12:18
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SDC
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soccermum79 wrote:
SDC wrote:
soccermum79 wrote:
SDC wrote:
Ihatedumbsoccerparents wrote:
SDC wrote:So it was FOMO?

How does this help Loudoun? I see how it can help Valor and GF....


Simple, Loudoun is a powerhouse now they have players from 2 other clubs to help them be even stronger. Plus starting a new club it’s easier to trim the fat and add more muscle to the line up

My 2 cents


The other clubs would need to have the talent to displace existing for that to happen. And Loudoun already has a huge pipeline so I don't see this helping in any way....


Quantity over quality. Their pipeline might be large, but they certainly are not turning out very strong players in the older ECNL brackets. This move was in the advantage of GFRSC and Valor over LS.


This is due to the fact that the good, younger players left Loudoun prior to aging up/out of Loudoun at graduation. It happened in the past (and to a lessor extent still now) for a variety of reasons, such as no path (didn't get ECNL until recently, but has been fixed), poor coaching on girls side (still an issue), terrible administration (still an issue) lack of higher end college connections (still an issue), etc. They didn't merge with GFRSC and Valor to get/keep older players.....




Are you just highlighting my words for fun, or was there a point you were trying to make?
[Post New]02/07/2023 15:23
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SoccerWatcher
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Loudoun is going to be fine. For U13-U16 all of the teams qualified or are close to qualifying for Nationals. Their 2006 team is in the top half. The only team struggling is the oldest age group which is going to graduate this year. This merger will help them with the younger ages as they enter ECNL age. What Loudoun needs to focus on is getting girls into top college programs and they will be set going forward
[Post New]02/07/2023 16:02
quote
SDC
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SoccerWatcher wrote:Loudoun is going to be fine. For U13-U16 all of the teams qualified or are close to qualifying for Nationals. Their 2006 team is in the top half. The only team struggling is the oldest age group which is going to graduate this year. This merger will help them with the younger ages as they enter ECNL age. What Loudoun needs to focus on is getting girls into top college programs and they will be set going forward


Do you think that Loudoun getting "qualified or are close to qualifying for Nationals" is a pretty low bar? Especially considering that almost half the Mid-Atlantic qualifies, and the enormous pool of players they already pull from. Have any of their teams had success at Nationals when playing real competition?
[Post New]02/07/2023 16:26
quote
westsidesoccer
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Lasso_FC_Girls wrote:
TedLasso wrote:
Blutarski wrote:
TedLasso wrote:
Youth soccer would be so much better if there was pro/rel throughout but there's way too many different leagues/clubs currently to pull that off.


TedLasso, why would youth soccer be so much better with pro/rel ?


I definitely don't know or have all the answers, nor do I know what the silver bullet is. What I do know is that the current landscape is a huge and there are far too many clubs and leagues nationwide even for 'national' programs/leagues. A good article about this came out when the DA folded but still within there you can see why it would be difficult to solve this problem we have.

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2020/4/16/21223638/us-soccer-development-academy-closed-coronavirus-mens-womens-national-teams


IMO, the ONLY way it could happen is if somehow all the leagues merged and manage it from there. ECNL, GA, and USYS for girls all together and MLS, ECNL, and USYS for boys. Unfortunetely this will never ever happen.

What can happen on the girls side though is GA folding and both ECNL and USYS split the teams involved. I don't consider ECNL and ECNL RL a pro system and USYS E64 vs. USYS P.RO. is confusing to me. I think if ECNL were to start a 3rd teir division, it could implement a relegation system. USYS could re-organize the system it has in place to a relegation system E64>P.R.O.>DPL/EDP. I think E64 is just Clubs chosen by USYS?

Boys is a little tougher because I don't see MLS Next or ECNL going anywhere and when you add in USYS, it gets very complicated.

The other huge hurdle is ideally you want to relegate by age group. Since the Elite leagues travel to other states and have long commutes, relegating an age group to play against an opponent that could be 300 miles away from another age group that could possibly share the same coach would make things impossible.

As for NVA Alliance, I don't see much of an impact. Smart parents are going to take their kids to the coach and system they feel is a better fit even if it means driving 45 minutes. Parents who are not concerned are going to go the most convenient. Everyone mentions VDA but forgets QP has a major recruiting oppurtunity in HP Elite training business which is a perfect example of some families willing to travel versus those who don't. NVA will certainly have larger pool to pull from and I think it will help the younger ages even more than it has already, but let's face it, a lot of players start leaving at or before U13 for reasons that I can only assume, and you know what happens when you assume.


From what I've seen on the boys side, E64 is a step down from P.R.O., where teams are invited on the basis of previous year's performance in their leagues. You are correct - E64 is clubs, not teams, and teams/age groups are bundled regardless of their individual merit.
[Post New]02/07/2023 17:08
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Lasso_FC_Girls
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SDC wrote:
SoccerWatcher wrote:Loudoun is going to be fine. For U13-U16 all of the teams qualified or are close to qualifying for Nationals. Their 2006 team is in the top half. The only team struggling is the oldest age group which is going to graduate this year. This merger will help them with the younger ages as they enter ECNL age. What Loudoun needs to focus on is getting girls into top college programs and they will be set going forward


Do you think that Loudoun getting "qualified or are close to qualifying for Nationals" is a pretty low bar? Especially considering that almost half the Mid-Atlantic qualifies, and the enormous pool of players they already pull from. Have any of their teams had success at Nationals when playing real competition?


Both a good question and very brave.

I think NVA ECNL is set up for well for the future 2012 birth year and beyond. NVA will continue to struggle with its 05/04 Class and 06 Class. 2007s should be the beginning of decent D1 placement since it is a little too late to move clubs now. From here on, you can find yourself being optimistic or pessimistic.

The 2008s had a great fall season, they are not as good as the ECNL record portrays however, a sign of a deep team is one that makes it through injuries with no major setbacks (VDA is on the other side, loss of a key player to another club as well as injuries and lack of depth). Also, if you know, you know, there are some politics involved with this team.

The 2009s continue to do well. They will have another new coach next season that has not been announced yet. No idea how many will stay or go but getting the right coach for this and the 2010 should be very very important to hit the mark. I'm hoping they just move Gus from GFR.

The 2010s still have time to bring in players and can get better. Same thing, get the right coach and succeed. Get the wrong coach, and bury the future for at least two years.

2011s are still young but will probably really begin to see the fruits of the merger in the coming years. Same goes for every younger team.

I think the future is bright for NVA. NVA has also brought Jill Ellis into the picture to help with improving the Clubs reputation, appeal, and pathway to a brighter future. One major thing Loudoun has to watch for and has already suffered from is parent politics with the Board and Club coaches.
[Post New]02/07/2023 17:12
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Blutarski
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I am dubious that pro/rel is really much of a player in terms of what ails youth soccer. Recall that we used to have a great example or pro/rel when WAGS was a league. It failed in the current youth soccer environment after surviving for a 40 years according to their site. What makes you think that it would survive now just a few short years later? It failed because families were seeking a higher level of play and to be exclusive. And while some in ECNL complain about the travel, if you really asked, I think you would find that most players and families love the format and don't want it to change.

It was mentioned previously that the landscape we have is driven ultimately by the desires of those paying for it. It will only change when people stop paying for it.
[Post New]02/13/2023 19:06
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TedLasso
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FPYCparent wrote:I guess I've been away too long. Question ...

What is the impact on RL teams (particularly at GFR girls)? DD's FPYC 2008 team occupied the GFR '08G spot in RL in the fall (and in the upcoming Jefferson Cup). Will the individual clubs maintain their RL teams later in 2023 (U16 for the 2008s)?


I would imagine this doesn’t affect any RL teams much that are currently existing. This may have more effect on the younger groups as they age up like previously mentioned. Any rosters that may get affected would be any of the ECNL teams Loudoun had if/should any players decide to try for a roster spot but that’s really no different than any other year.
[Post New]02/17/2023 07:34
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Rountree
Member Offline
soccer197 wrote:
soccerNOVA wrote:
Pepe wrote:Beyond necessary. DMV area was so concentrated with clubs. Clubs from Dallas, LA, and NY to name a few have fewer clubs that our area did. Working well for VDA, others followed. Clubs get more players, higher quality, better training in long run. There is no con to any of this for the players and clubs.


We’re still in a soccer hotbed. Just a couple of teams would make NOVA teams great, but travel to practice would be a nightmare for some families. I like the consolidation, but it’s not necessary to go that far. Consider that on the girls side all 5 NOVA teams are in the top 6 teams in ECNL at the U13 age group. That’s the first year things have been settled with the semi-recent promotion of Loudoun to ECNL, and the more recent consolidations leading to Union and Brave.

Things are more uneven in the boys side, but that’s because MLS Next has two teams that attract players in addition to the 5 ECNL clubs - and Alexandria and Springfield happen to be right next to each other.

If NOVA youth soccer was starting from scratch and I could align teams however I wanted, I’d make 4 top league county teams for both boys and girls. Those would go in Arlington, Fairfax, Loudoun, and Prince William. And they would all start at U13 and not be affiliated with youth programs whose missions should be different.


A hotbed? Really? What makes you determine that? California and Texas are soccer hotbeds. NOVA, like every other densely populated area with lots of affluence, produces plenty of players. Philly, Boston, Charlotte, NY/NJ, Atlanta, South Florida are also “hotbeds”


The DC area is a youth soccer hotbed. Ask any college coach. Travel to camps in other parts of the country. Some of the best players in the US are from this area. Are other areas just as good? Yes, but just because you don't have a pro living next to you doesn't mean this area is void of top talent. You're just not hanging out in the right circles.
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