Message
Anonymous wrote:Are we sure it's the curriculum? Would Montessori or IB or Creative Curriculum or using different textbooks really be the issue, if the problem is kids coming in below grade level, enrolling mid-year, or having behavior problems (some of which are caused by living situations outside of the school)?
First identify the problem. If in-bounds families are literally not choosing the school because they would prefer Reggio vs. Tools of the Mind or something, then it's worth exploring. But I am guessing that is not the real problem: it's behavior issues, or how the kids look, or low test scores, and curriculum solves none of those.
Good point.
I would say that you need to encourage more inbound kids to the school and if immersion is a way to get more kids into the school, then it's worth exploring. I would assume that some of those at-risk students have issues at home which causes problems focusing and behavioral issues at school. I would also suppose that there are some of those at-risk students that don't have those kinds of issues which would benefit from being exposed to immersion or reggio, a different curriculum, etc... themselves.
A school needs to have as many tools in it's belt as there are differences in students. You cannot just have a screwdriver and try to drive home a nail. Increased enrollment, increased funding. Could that lead to a specialist in behavioral issues and other problems some kids may face? I don't know.... it's worth looking at all angles.
Anonymous wrote:warrenox wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Over 17% of students at Miner are homeless. Providing a curriculum that transfers well to other schools, and can be joined mid-year if necessary, is very important for those students. I cannot think of something much more opposed to that than Mandarin immersion.
However, if the hope is to get a program like Tyler's where there are single and dual-language classrooms in each grade, and the organizers expect all the homeless kids will go in the English-only track, I commend them for their creativity. Some parents will do almost anything--including have their kids learn a language most of them cannot support at home--in order to keep away from poor people.
I love you! This is Tyler- and the push behind dual language options at schools.
Yes. God forbid we do something to attract middle or upper class people to their neighborhood school. The horror.
In the school but away from the poors. You want the segregation. The current curriculum at Miner and teachers aren't bad actually. What you don't want is to be with the very at risk kids, I get it. But the mandarin idea at Miner just sounds like a way to keep your snowflakes in bubble wrap. The links the PP provided support immersion but not true integration of dual-language programs. I love how PS3 and younger parents have it all figured out. Really, go check out Tyler in the upper grades. Not your utopia by any stretch. The entire idea is daft.
....
No, you're racist and elitist. Yes, white IB kids should go to Miner. They should NOT GET a "separate school" within the damn school! They're not better than the other children!!!
http://www.greatschools.org/washington-dc/washington/4-Miner-Elementary-School/
Please tell me how the curriculum at Miner is succeeding again... What's your solution to increase the student population and keep the school from actually closing for lack of enrollment?
People who have a way to give their kids a better start, be they white, black, asian, hispanic, or purple, will take that option. You owe that to your kids.
Why go to the assumption that parent's don't want their child around at-risk kids? Why not make the logical leap that parents want a quality education for their child?
And guess what? Parent's of PK3 aren't stupid and naive as you suppose above. I could throw that assumption back at you and say that parents of older children don't have anything figured out because their kid is in a failing school.
I'll not accuse you of being daft or racist, or an elitist as you have done to others, but I would suggest you look in the mirror and ask yourself if assuming others have nefarious plans is helping you achieve your goals and if that's the attitude you would want to pass on to your children.
Throwing accusations around and screaming racism isn't helping anyone's cause, including your own. Rationally having a discussion and even providing examples of your own experience without demonizing anyone so as to further the discussion would help all of us.
Adding Mandarin (or any language immersion program) does not improve the base curriculum at the school. Obviously I agree that they need improvements there. But I fundamentally disagree that a language immersion program will help. This isn't theoretical. These types of programs have been implemented elsewhere in DCPS. AGAIN, see Tyler. Adding the language immersion has not done ANYTHING to help the curriculum of the traditional program. Children in the traditional program receive a markedly worse education than those in the Spanish Immersion program. And as a PP mentioned, at Miner, there is a sizeable transient population. They aren't going to be able to jump into an immersion program, so they're stuck back in the regular program, WHICH WILL SEE NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL.
I agree with your post mostly. I would say that adding enrollment actually increases funding for a school and allocation of resources for specialized teachers (i.e., science teacher) that has been lost at Miner due to the declining enrollment.
There needs to be a parallel discussion on how to improve the curriculum at the school, but that shouldn't preclude or dissuade looking into a immersion program as well. Both can happen if there is the push; this shouldn't be a either/or proposition, as it appears to be at Tyler. We can't look at Tyler and say because this school isn't the model we would like, we should keep status quo. We should look at the successes and failures of that program, and work to improve upon where they fail. There are many successful programs around the country; we should expect and demand DCPS to replicate those success stories.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Over 17% of students at Miner are homeless. Providing a curriculum that transfers well to other schools, and can be joined mid-year if necessary, is very important for those students. I cannot think of something much more opposed to that than Mandarin immersion.
However, if the hope is to get a program like Tyler's where there are single and dual-language classrooms in each grade, and the organizers expect all the homeless kids will go in the English-only track, I commend them for their creativity. Some parents will do almost anything--including have their kids learn a language most of them cannot support at home--in order to keep away from poor people.
I love you! This is Tyler- and the push behind dual language options at schools.
Yes. God forbid we do something to attract middle or upper class people to their neighborhood school. The horror.
In the school but away from the poors. You want the segregation. The current curriculum at Miner and teachers aren't bad actually. What you don't want is to be with the very at risk kids, I get it. But the mandarin idea at Miner just sounds like a way to keep your snowflakes in bubble wrap. The links the PP provided support immersion but not true integration of dual-language programs. I love how PS3 and younger parents have it all figured out. Really, go check out Tyler in the upper grades. Not your utopia by any stretch. The entire idea is daft.
Again, it should be a goal of DCPS and the school for IB families to attend their neighborhood school. I love how any time someone suggests something that would do that (be it a gifted program or a language immersion program), people scream "racist!" It is so ridiculous and short sighted.
No, you're racist and elitist. Yes, white IB kids should go to Miner. They should NOT GET a "separate school" within the damn school! They're not better than the other children!!!
http://www.greatschools.org/washington-dc/washington/4-Miner-Elementary-School/
Please tell me how the curriculum at Miner is succeeding again... What's your solution to increase the student population and keep the school from actually closing for lack of enrollment?
People who have a way to give their kids a better start, be they white, black, asian, hispanic, or purple, will take that option. You owe that to your kids.
Why go to the assumption that parent's don't want their child around at-risk kids? Why not make the logical leap that parents want a quality education for their child?
And guess what? Parent's of PK3 aren't stupid and naive as you suppose above. I could throw that assumption back at you and say that parents of older children don't have anything figured out because their kid is in a failing school.
I'll not accuse you of being daft or racist, or an elitist as you have done to others, but I would suggest you look in the mirror and ask yourself if assuming others have nefarious plans is helping you achieve your goals and if that's the attitude you would want to pass on to your children.
Throwing accusations around and screaming racism isn't helping anyone's cause, including your own. Rationally having a discussion and even providing examples of your own experience without demonizing anyone so as to further the discussion would help all of us.
Anonymous wrote:warrenox wrote:Anonymous wrote:warrenox wrote:Anonymous wrote:Listen, I think it's all very pie in the sky to say that immersion benefits at risk kids. At Tyler, they kick kids out of immersion if they're too unruly (or SpEd) because they don't want to scare/alienate the upper middle class white families. As MULTIPLE pps have said, in actuality, dual immersion programs ADD to segregation, they don't decrease it. At Tyler, white parents still woudn't be caught dead with their kids in the 'traditional' program.
Have these MULTIPLE people provided any statistics to support those claims? Everyone can have an opinion, but not everyone has a informed opinion.
Are the "traditional" programs working? Do you have dead white parents that can testify to this or is this all hyperbole?
Playing the race card isn't going to help any of the students; finding solutions together is the best option.
Stats? There are 0 white kids in Tyler traditional programs above the 4 year old class. ZERO.
http://www.greatschools.org/washington-dc/washington/56-Tyler-Elementary-School/quality/#Dig_deeper
Those statistics there probably shows you the answer on how well the "traditional" program is working. What parent isn't concerned by those ratings?
I bet there are many black kids that are in the lottery system trying to move from Tyler as well, but that isn't your focus is it?
You are completely missing my point. Maybe you have me confused with another PP. Maybe you have me confused for a white person. I am not, for what it's worth. My point is that adding immersion doesn't desegregate a school - that's why I mentioned that there aren't white kids in Tyler Traditional. Of COURSE I am concerned about ALL the kids at Tyler - my own black kids (who I am pulling out of Tyler) included. My argument is that adding the immersion program didn't help 99% of them. It's a terrible, awful place.
Maybe we are talking past one another. Immersion programs are not going to get inbound students into traditional programs at those schools, I agree. If those programs are failing now, why would we fault anyone for not wanting to be a part of those programs? An immersion program can desegregate a school in the sense that parents, even non-Capital Hill parents (i.e. Northwest) will most likely be applying to get their child into spots for immersion programs, particularly ones where there aren't many other choices. This will change the demographics of a school to where it's not predominately one race, which is better for all students.
Immersion programs don't change a school overnight. It takes getting those students who started these programs at an early age to get to the 5th grade before you will see the 5th grade scores at that school change.
I totally understand your frustration with Tyler and hope you find a better school that fits you and your family. It's frustrating when it's not your local inbound school. My child will be inbound to Miner and I truly hope that something can change at that school before I have to make the difficult choice of getting into the lottery and taking my chances there.
Anonymous wrote:warrenox wrote:Anonymous wrote:Listen, I think it's all very pie in the sky to say that immersion benefits at risk kids. At Tyler, they kick kids out of immersion if they're too unruly (or SpEd) because they don't want to scare/alienate the upper middle class white families. As MULTIPLE pps have said, in actuality, dual immersion programs ADD to segregation, they don't decrease it. At Tyler, white parents still woudn't be caught dead with their kids in the 'traditional' program.
Have these MULTIPLE people provided any statistics to support those claims? Everyone can have an opinion, but not everyone has a informed opinion.
Are the "traditional" programs working? Do you have dead white parents that can testify to this or is this all hyperbole?
Playing the race card isn't going to help any of the students; finding solutions together is the best option.
Stats? There are 0 white kids in Tyler traditional programs above the 4 year old class. ZERO.
http://www.greatschools.org/washington-dc/washington/56-Tyler-Elementary-School/quality/#Dig_deeper
Those statistics there probably shows you the answer on how well the "traditional" program is working. What parent isn't concerned by those ratings?
I bet there are many black kids that are in the lottery system trying to move from Tyler as well, but that isn't your focus is it?
http://www.greatschools.org/washington-dc/washington/56-Tyler-Elementary-School/details/
This statistic shows that there is a higher percentage of white students than the DC average.
Anonymous wrote:Miner also only has a large homeless population right now because the homeless shelter at DC General is IB for it. This shelter is closing soon and those kids will be spread out among other sites around the city. Its probably not smart to make long term plans with a population in mind that will be leaving.
If any more students leave Miner, what makes DCPS keep the school open? There already is only half the student population that was anticipated when they built the facilities. This can be contributed to the fact that many families who should be inbound to Miner choose to go the lottery route.
How do you stop this exodus from happening? Why not make a long term plan that would facilitate a desire for people in the lottery to choose Miner? Again, facilities are there.
Having an elementary school that is a desired destination is good for any community. Losing a school is a loss for the whole community.
Anonymous wrote:Listen, I think it's all very pie in the sky to say that immersion benefits at risk kids. At Tyler, they kick kids out of immersion if they're too unruly (or SpEd) because they don't want to scare/alienate the upper middle class white families. As MULTIPLE pps have said, in actuality, dual immersion programs ADD to segregation, they don't decrease it. At Tyler, white parents still woudn't be caught dead with their kids in the 'traditional' program.
Have these MULTIPLE people provided any statistics to support those claims? Everyone can have an opinion, but not everyone has a informed opinion. I've backed up my comments with professionals who support those claims. Where is your proof that dual immersion adds to segregation aside from your supposition of what white parents at Tyler are doing? You're putting everything in a racial context when it really may be about parents wanting what is best for their child.
Are the "traditional" programs working? Do you have dead white parents that can testify to this or is this all hyperbole?
Playing the race card isn't going to help any of the students; finding solutions together is the best option.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think Miner could potentially be a food place for a dual language program. But I think the organizers aren't including the whole community. Not many parents from the surrounding apartment complexes where The majority of Miner parents live read DC urban mom and as a parent at Miner, I find it interesting that I'm first seeing the announcement of this meeting on this forum. The school is already becoming divisive. I think that we have to be more conscious to include the majority of parents and not a few. Why mandarin? Was there a vote from the general parent population? I don't recall getting a survey and I check books bags and talk to my child's teachers daily.
Well said. I'd also like to know the history of this "grass-roots" movement.
I've had a chance to speak with the lady leading the effort for an Immersion Program at Miner.
A few things I learned:
- Mandarin is the language she would like to see; DCPS would decide what language to offer by what resources are available to them. Spanish apparently isn't an option since they already have a few Spanish Immersion programs.
-Mandarin is a Level 5 language, which is difficult for adults, but negligible difference for kids under 13 to learn. If you have a grasp of a Level 5 language, then it's immensely easier to learn a Level 1-4.
-Everyone involved in this grass roots are parents of child inbound to Miner. It seems to be a learn as you go process and no one is a professional organizer. I heard some ideas that there needs to be a reaching out of people that may not communicate by social media and the message was well received. Gimbiya, the parent leading the discussions, has been to ANC meetings, and has put together various meetings in the community to show films and lead discussions. I think there is a understanding that this message needs to be spread more effectively so that all community stakeholders know about this movement.
http://speakingintonguesfilm.info/
-Immersion programs have been shown to desegregate communities
http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-america/population-2043/how-a-public-chinese-immersion-school-is-desegregating-st-louis-20140909
-Miner has a student population that is less than half what the facilities can handle. Miner currently lost their science teacher as enrollment decreased as parents have looked to put their kids in the lottery system for other schools instead of going to Miner, their local school. Because of the facilities to handle an increase of kids that would be looking to get into a Immersion Program, Miner is a ideal fit. This potentially could decrease the wait-list of other nearby schools like Maury.
-Immersion programs have been shown to benefit at-risk students and may possibly be the only chance these kids have at acquiring a fluency in a second language
http://www.carla.umn.edu/immersion/acie/vol2/Bridge2.2.pdf
- The belief that an immersion program is detrimental to a student's studies of reading and writing are unfounded: "English-proficient immersion students who achieved relatively high levels of second-language proficiency also acquired higher levels of English language skills and metalinguistic awareness—that is, the ability to think about how various parts of a language function."
http://www.carla.umn.edu/immersion/documents/ImmersionResearch_TaraFortune.html
-Understanding that parents will not be able to "help" with homework, there are many resources out there to help with tutoring which would be a benefit for any student
http://paassc.com/
If nothing else, this grassroots movement is an excellent thing because it has brought a focus to Miner that has at times been lacking.