How do you reconcile homosexuality and Christianity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

PP was using it in the context of sin in general. Obviously pedophilia and homosexuality are differently levels of sin. We are adults on here right? Does that really need to be explicitly disclosed for you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, there are plenty of denominations that don't talk about categorizing sinners, or labeling drug addicts, or anything else of that nature. I for one do not tell my children that alcoholics or anyone else are sinners. I tell them that alcoholism and drug abuse are illnesses and cause deep suffering. Sin doesn't enter into it. If I were to talk about other people's sins, which I don't, I would focus on greed. The banking system is a much worthier target of our Christian outrage than our gay neighbors.

I hope any gay children of the OP, or posters who agree with her, have enough of a support system outside of their family and church to know that they too are created in God's image. They are loved by God exactly as He made them.

First of all, some of you have some really twisted ideas about what "sin" is. Sin is not some all-powerful label that permanently condemns you to Hell or makes you somehow dirty. Sin is something everyone has a propensity for- its greek roots quite literally mean "missing the mark." That's what it is- missing the target, and the target is to be as much like Christ as possible. If I tell my children that I sin, or that they sin, that is not a condemnation. It is a statement of fact. We all sin, and we all have our own particular weaknesses. That does not mean that our sins themselves should be accepted or celebrated.

If gay children are made to feel dirty or unloved or rejected, that is the complete and utter failure of the people around them, because all children should feel loved and accepted no matter what. That has nothing to do with Christianity, but with people's automatic fear and loathing of those who are different from them. If they did not couch that hatred in Christianity it would have been in something else, some other religion, some other philosophy. People are terrible sometimes, whether they profess to be Christian or not.

I am the OP and you're making so many hateful assumptions about me and all it shows, really, is that you cannot handle the prospect of other people disagreeing with your point of view. I have tried to remain civil. I would never reject my child (or any child, or any person) on the basis of a real or perceived flaw. That really has nothing to do with this discussion, which is about the Biblical basis for why Christianity has considered homosexuality a sin for so long. You could make a better contribution if you cited the actual Bible, and not your own flawed assumptions.

What? Yes, there is a Biblical basis for condemning homosexuality. Many of us are able to reconcile it without any hardship whatsoever because there are so many other historical relics in the Bible --a book written by men -- that society has long since discarded.

People had already answered your question. You just want to tell them why they're wrong.

If your child is gay, are you okay with them living their life as an out gay person in a gay relationship, and will you recognize that their relationship is as precious and sacred and loving as your own? If not, all your lip service about being loving and accepting means very little.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem with the idea that being gay is a sin is that it forces gay people to be something they are not. It forces them to live a lie that is far more destructive than the truth. It tells them that they are less than, that they are sinful and damaged, that they are broken. Have you known a closeted gay person who then came out? To be able to be yourself, fall in love, and live your true life is far closer to what God wants for us.

Gay people cannot become straight. They cannot "repent" and live a happy, fulfilled life as a straight person. We shouldn't ask them to. I don't believe Jesus would.

If you consider having sex with someone of the same gender a sin, that does not necessarily mean that you want someone to lie or live in the closet. The sin is the act, not the person. I suppose the only real answer Christianity provides is to remain celibate in the case that you are gay. But to lie, feel "broken" etc., is not necessarily true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

No, sorry. Jesus was not a fan of Leviticus and I'm not either. Not sure why, on this one point you're harkening back to Leviticus but ignoring everything else it says about shellfish and cloth.

You're the one who is completely missing Jesus' broader message of love and acceptance. Your analogy with your kid is off-point. You're sad.

Goodbye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with the idea that being gay is a sin is that it forces gay people to be something they are not. It forces them to live a lie that is far more destructive than the truth. It tells them that they are less than, that they are sinful and damaged, that they are broken. Have you known a closeted gay person who then came out? To be able to be yourself, fall in love, and live your true life is far closer to what God wants for us.

Gay people cannot become straight. They cannot "repent" and live a happy, fulfilled life as a straight person. We shouldn't ask them to. I don't believe Jesus would.

If you consider having sex with someone of the same gender a sin, that does not necessarily mean that you want someone to lie or live in the closet. The sin is the act, not the person. I suppose the only real answer Christianity provides is to remain celibate in the case that you are gay. But to lie, feel "broken" etc., is not necessarily true.

Thankfully, there are plenty of Christians who don't believe that gay people have to live in celibacy. Only homophobes who think it's a sin think that's a fair solution. The rest of us have realized it isn't a sin in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, there are plenty of denominations that don't talk about categorizing sinners, or labeling drug addicts, or anything else of that nature. I for one do not tell my children that alcoholics or anyone else are sinners. I tell them that alcoholism and drug abuse are illnesses and cause deep suffering. Sin doesn't enter into it. If I were to talk about other people's sins, which I don't, I would focus on greed. The banking system is a much worthier target of our Christian outrage than our gay neighbors.

I hope any gay children of the OP, or posters who agree with her, have enough of a support system outside of their family and church to know that they too are created in God's image. They are loved by God exactly as He made them.

First of all, some of you have some really twisted ideas about what "sin" is. Sin is not some all-powerful label that permanently condemns you to Hell or makes you somehow dirty. Sin is something everyone has a propensity for- its greek roots quite literally mean "missing the mark." That's what it is- missing the target, and the target is to be as much like Christ as possible. If I tell my children that I sin, or that they sin, that is not a condemnation. It is a statement of fact. We all sin, and we all have our own particular weaknesses. That does not mean that our sins themselves should be accepted or celebrated.

If gay children are made to feel dirty or unloved or rejected, that is the complete and utter failure of the people around them, because all children should feel loved and accepted no matter what. That has nothing to do with Christianity, but with people's automatic fear and loathing of those who are different from them. If they did not couch that hatred in Christianity it would have been in something else, some other religion, some other philosophy. People are terrible sometimes, whether they profess to be Christian or not.

I am the OP and you're making so many hateful assumptions about me and all it shows, really, is that you cannot handle the prospect of other people disagreeing with your point of view. I have tried to remain civil. I would never reject my child (or any child, or any person) on the basis of a real or perceived flaw. That really has nothing to do with this discussion, which is about the Biblical basis for why Christianity has considered homosexuality a sin for so long. You could make a better contribution if you cited the actual Bible, and not your own flawed assumptions.

What? Yes, there is a Biblical basis for condemning homosexuality. Many of us are able to reconcile it without any hardship whatsoever because there are so many other historical relics in the Bible --a book written by men -- that society has long since discarded.

People had already answered your question. You just want to tell them why they're wrong.

If your child is gay, are you okay with them living their life as an out gay person in a gay relationship, and will you recognize that their relationship is as precious and sacred and loving as your own? If not, all your lip service about being loving and accepting means very little.

If this verse written by Paul (who wrote much of the New Testament) is a historical relic, then it is easy to dismiss anything he wrote, and just do whatever I want. Why bother with Christianity in that case? If that is the answer, no, I don't find that very convincing.

My priority is not to explicitly approve of every single thing my children do. I am raising my children to think for themselves and make decisions on their own. If they feel that they are right with God, that is what matters to me, not whether I think their relationships are "precious and sacred and loving."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, there are plenty of denominations that don't talk about categorizing sinners, or labeling drug addicts, or anything else of that nature. I for one do not tell my children that alcoholics or anyone else are sinners. I tell them that alcoholism and drug abuse are illnesses and cause deep suffering. Sin doesn't enter into it. If I were to talk about other people's sins, which I don't, I would focus on greed. The banking system is a much worthier target of our Christian outrage than our gay neighbors.

I hope any gay children of the OP, or posters who agree with her, have enough of a support system outside of their family and church to know that they too are created in God's image. They are loved by God exactly as He made them.

First of all, some of you have some really twisted ideas about what "sin" is. Sin is not some all-powerful label that permanently condemns you to Hell or makes you somehow dirty. Sin is something everyone has a propensity for- its greek roots quite literally mean "missing the mark." That's what it is- missing the target, and the target is to be as much like Christ as possible. If I tell my children that I sin, or that they sin, that is not a condemnation. It is a statement of fact. We all sin, and we all have our own particular weaknesses. That does not mean that our sins themselves should be accepted or celebrated.

If gay children are made to feel dirty or unloved or rejected, that is the complete and utter failure of the people around them, because all children should feel loved and accepted no matter what. That has nothing to do with Christianity, but with people's automatic fear and loathing of those who are different from them. If they did not couch that hatred in Christianity it would have been in something else, some other religion, some other philosophy. People are terrible sometimes, whether they profess to be Christian or not.

I am the OP and you're making so many hateful assumptions about me and all it shows, really, is that you cannot handle the prospect of other people disagreeing with your point of view. I have tried to remain civil. I would never reject my child (or any child, or any person) on the basis of a real or perceived flaw. That really has nothing to do with this discussion, which is about the Biblical basis for why Christianity has considered homosexuality a sin for so long. You could make a better contribution if you cited the actual Bible, and not your own flawed assumptions.

What? Yes, there is a Biblical basis for condemning homosexuality. Many of us are able to reconcile it without any hardship whatsoever because there are so many other historical relics in the Bible --a book written by men -- that society has long since discarded.

People had already answered your question. You just want to tell them why they're wrong.

If your child is gay, are you okay with them living their life as an out gay person in a gay relationship, and will you recognize that their relationship is as precious and sacred and loving as your own? If not, all your lip service about being loving and accepting means very little.

If this verse written by Paul (who wrote much of the New Testament) is a historical relic, then it is easy to dismiss anything he wrote, and just do whatever I want. Why bother with Christianity in that case? If that is the answer, no, I don't find that very convincing.

My priority is not to explicitly approve of every single thing my children do. I am raising my children to think for themselves and make decisions on their own. If they feel that they are right with God, that is what matters to me, not whether I think their relationships are "precious and sacred and loving."

I'll take that as a no, then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is nothing to reconcile. It just is:

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Pretty straight forward. God does not approve. However, lets keep this on context: Unless you are Jesus Christ himself (or Joel Olsteen and his wife lol) we are all sinners the day we come out of the womb. This is not to dismiss or diminish homosexuality, but its just one of many things that Jesus's death has saved us from.

We are suppose to repent for our sins and not actively live an ungodly live style. The problem with sin is that it you could die directly as a result of it. But even if you do live an ungodly lifestyle, as long as you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you will meet him at the gates of heaven. This goes for lairs, killers, homosexuals, transexuals, idlers, adulterers, rapists and the like. So all this debate about the weight of sin, or anything else is really irrelevant from a big picture perspective.

I think 2 Corinthians 5:17 says what I was trying to say more eloquently": "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Leviticus is pretty clear on this issue. I'm not sure what the debate about what Jesus thinks is all about. Jesus's arrival in the new testament washed our sins outlined in the old testament away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What? Yes, there is a Biblical basis for condemning homosexuality. Many of us are able to reconcile it without any hardship whatsoever because there are so many other historical relics in the Bible --a book written by men -- that society has long since discarded.

People had already answered your question. You just want to tell them why they're wrong.

If your child is gay, are you okay with them living their life as an out gay person in a gay relationship, and will you recognize that their relationship is as precious and sacred and loving as your own? If not, all your lip service about being loving and accepting means very little.

If this verse written by Paul (who wrote much of the New Testament) is a historical relic, then it is easy to dismiss anything he wrote, and just do whatever I want. Why bother with Christianity in that case? If that is the answer, no, I don't find that very convincing.

My priority is not to explicitly approve of every single thing my children do. I am raising my children to think for themselves and make decisions on their own. If they feel that they are right with God, that is what matters to me, not whether I think their relationships are "precious and sacred and loving."

I'll take that as a no, then.

As a Christian, my approval is not what is important. That's a very self-centered, worldly perspective. We are theoretically reaching for something better than that. I would not be happy if my children lived with a partner before marriage, or were materialistic, or what have you. Any number of outcomes would be bad from my perspective. But to me, that's not really important. What is important is that I raise them to know who Jesus Christ is. What they do after that is their choice. And if they made choices I disagreed with, I would try to deal with them in a Christian way, and not reject them (which is not what Christ would do). Your children will make choices you don't agree with, and if your post here is any indication, you are not exactly going to handle it well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Leviticus is pretty clear on this issue. I'm not sure what the debate about what Jesus thinks is all about. Jesus's arrival in the new testament washed our sins outlined in the old testament away.

So back to page 1 of this thread. Leviticus tells you not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers. But you do both, right? Why? Because Jesus did away with the types of rules that are in Leviticus. Why people point to this one passage in Leviticus and feel free to ignore all the rest is beyond me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Let me repost what you stated here with a different "sin":

" it's true that Jesus never mentioned beastiality.. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow."

Like I said, we can say that about any "sin" that Jesus never mentions directly.

BTW, I never talk about this stuff or think much about it in IRL to anyone because it's really not that important in terms of my belief. My DC's BF has gay parents. DC and friend have had sleepovers and hang out a lot. It doesn't bother me one bit. Just because I post on here about how I interpret the Bible doesn't make me homophobic.

I'm not a member of the Westboro Baptist church who goes around picketing gays. But, since OP brought up this topic on a forum, I threw my 2 cents in. You can believe what you like, as does everyone else, but I do find it interesting to see how people reason how Jesus doesn't consider homosexuality a sin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
So back to page 1 of this thread. Leviticus tells you not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers. But you do both, right? Why? Because Jesus did away with the types of rules that are in Leviticus. Why people point to this one passage in Leviticus and feel free to ignore all the rest is beyond me.

Well, food and clothing are different from sexual behavior. They are treated differently in the Bible. Paul also mentions sexual morality explicitly more than once. Historically, Christianity has also always had a very strict code for sexual behavior. If we think about the very early church, I do not think homosexuality would have been considered ok.