What happened to MCPS?????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, the problem is, how do they get feedback when everybody gets the same rating? How do you judge "learning and doing your best" if everything is the same?

?

The whole thing about "learning and doing your best" is that it's learning and doing YOUR best. It doesn't matter what everybody else is doing. "Learning and doing your best" is not graded on a class curve.

And, really, what does an A, once per quarter on a report card, tell you that a P, once per quarter on a report card, doesn't? Do you think that teachers no longer have to document their grades for the new report card? Does an A on your kids' report card tell you anything about the grades the other kids got? (Is it any of your business what the grades the other kids got?)

I think that a lot of the outrage -- not all of it, but a lot of it -- comes from parents who can no longer brag on their elementary school kids' grades, and/or believe that you have to get good grades in elementary school so that you get good grades in middle school so that you get good grades in high school so that you get into a good college so that you don't ruin your life.

[Anonymous]

Do people really believe that there are smart, caring parents who do not hate 2.0?
Parents who can actually understand the report card?
We get a weekly spreadsheet with various areas of learning assessments, and we get emails from the teacher.
It is far from perfect, but our child is learning and we are doing fine.
Everyone's experience is not the same, but I am so tired of people declaring that MOCO is going down the drain as if the world is caving in.
Can't people not like it, it some aspects or all aspects not work for them, yet accept that other people have a positive experience with it?
I hate I-HOP, but that doesn't invalidate the experience of the millions of others who eat there every day.
Stop with the drama!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:awesome, 85% of my daughter's classmates received P for Proficient last year. What a bunch of smarties... They passed the proficiency bar... What about the bar for potential? Oops this is msps.

So true!!! But yea explain to them that P is a better motivator than A. These people defending it must be government workers that don't know the meaning of motivation. 85% in one bucket, Lower the bar.......

NP here, you see the thing is, it has only been recently that our DC has even mentioned "P"s or "ES's.
In our family, we have set up learning and doing your best as the motivator.
We don't expect symbols for grades, be they "P"'s or "A"'s to be our child's PRIMARY motivator for doing DC's best.
If the only thing motivating your kid is the grade they get, then you have a family problem, not a MCPS problem.

Well, the problem is, how do they get feedback when everybody gets the same rating? How do you judge "learning and doing your best" if everything is the same?

But everything is not the same.
How is this so different from "O"'s and "I"'s and "A"''s and "B"'s?
Do you not get a green assessment form that comes home on Thursday's?
The form shows 4 weeks worth of assessments.
It outlines the various areas of learning and the teacher denotes "Demonstrates", etc.
Then at the bottom there is a place for teacher notes.
Plus our kid's teachers gives letter grades for classwork, and notes on the class work.
Things like "You need to do...." or "Great ideas"
Do you not get this sort of form and/or feedback?
My kid is in 3rd grade by the way.
Do you not

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, the problem is, how do they get feedback when everybody gets the same rating? How do you judge "learning and doing your best" if everything is the same?

?

The whole thing about "learning and doing your best" is that it's learning and doing YOUR best. It doesn't matter what everybody else is doing. "Learning and doing your best" is not graded on a class curve.

And, really, what does an A, once per quarter on a report card, tell you that a P, once per quarter on a report card, doesn't? Do you think that teachers no longer have to document their grades for the new report card? Does an A on your kids' report card tell you anything about the grades the other kids got? (Is it any of your business what the grades the other kids got?)

I think that a lot of the outrage -- not all of it, but a lot of it -- comes from parents who can no longer brag on their elementary school kids' grades, and/or believe that you have to get good grades in elementary school so that you get good grades in middle school so that you get good grades in high school so that you get into a good college so that you don't ruin your life.

I have to agree for the most part. All of the grades are symbols, which give me a narrow idea of what my kid is doing. The fuller assessment comes from teacher notes and looking at the actual work my kid is doing, having my kid explain what they are learning.
People just don't like that the symbols of changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do people really believe that there are smart, caring parents who do not hate 2.0?
Parents who can actually understand the report card?
We get a weekly spreadsheet with various areas of learning assessments, and we get emails from the teacher.
It is far from perfect, but our child is learning and we are doing fine.
Everyone's experience is not the same, but I am so tired of people declaring that MOCO is going down the drain as if the world is caving in.
Can't people not like it, it some aspects or all aspects not work for them, yet accept that other people have a positive experience with it?
I hate I-HOP, but that doesn't invalidate the experience of the millions of others who eat there every day.
Stop with the drama!

You make way too much sense. OP seems to be either a drama queen, a private school parent trying to justify $35k/year, or she has some other axe to grind. So your great good sense will be wasted on her.

[Anonymous]

There's nothing dramatic about actually caring about your child's education. If you don't care about your kid's education fine, be happy. The only defense I have read from the 1 or 2 posters supporting MCPS is that grades don't matter and symbols have no meaning. Not a strong defense.

Grades are not abstract symbols or meaningless marks. They are measurements. The new system is highly inappropriate. Yes, the weaker teachers enjoy this system because it is 100% easier on them to execute than an actual grading system with granular measurements that they must define, share with students and parents, and provide consistent feedback.

As a teacher, I can tell you that including meaningful comments takes a lot of work. You must keep good notes and spend time thinking about each student to create comments for each grading cycle. You needed to create unit tests that had an appropriate degree of base level questions and challenge questions to distinguish between the N, S, and O. You had to be clear about what a student needed to do differently to be an O rather than an S. This is all gone with the new system. In the past, students would want more help to get from an S to O. This motivated them. Now, they don't even know whether they are a high P or low P. Feedback is not required.

I honestly believe that these kids going through the "everyone shoots for P" phase will be very unprepared once they emerge into an actual grade based system. The super bright kids will be fine but the upper middle, middle and lower performing students will be in for a shock rather than being well prepared from their earlier education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's nothing dramatic about actually caring about your child's education. If you don't care about your kid's education fine, be happy. The only defense I have read from the 1 or 2 posters supporting MCPS is that grades don't matter and symbols have no meaning. Not a strong defense.

Grades are not abstract symbols or meaningless marks. They are measurements. The new system is highly inappropriate. Yes, the weaker teachers enjoy this system because it is 100% easier on them to execute than an actual grading system with granular measurements that they must define, share with students and parents, and provide consistent feedback.

As a teacher, I can tell you that including meaningful comments takes a lot of work. You must keep good notes and spend time thinking about each student to create comments for each grading cycle. You needed to create unit tests that had an appropriate degree of base level questions and challenge questions to distinguish between the N, S, and O. You had to be clear about what a student needed to do differently to be an O rather than an S. This is all gone with the new system. In the past, students would want more help to get from an S to O. This motivated them. Now, they don't even know whether they are a high P or low P. Feedback is not required.

I honestly believe that these kids going through the "everyone shoots for P" phase will be very unprepared once they emerge into an actual grade based system. The super bright kids will be fine but the upper middle, middle and lower performing students will be in for a shock rather than being well prepared from their earlier education.

I am 10:56 and I assume you are responding to me.
Please re-read my post, because I did not say anything you are are ascerting in your response.
As a matter of fact I did say:

1) there are smart, caring parents who like 2.0, or at least do not hate it

2) grades are symbols, this system just changed the symbols (NO WHERE DID I SAY THEY WERE MEANINGLESS)

3) I EXPLICITLY said we were getting feedback and assessments in a number of ways (weekly assessment charts, classwork with notes/comments, emails)

4) No where did I say that I supported MCPS as a whole, I just said that some smart, caring people are ok with the CURRICULUM -- that is not the same as saying that everything the MCPS is cherry pie and ice cream

5) I fully understand, support, and can see that there are smart, caring people who dislike 2.0, I just maintain that those same people need to extend the same courtesy to those of us who don't!

[Anonymous]

My children have been exposed to the French and British school systems (private and public) before coming here to MCPS. While no system is perfect, they DO expect much higher standards of performance from their average students compared to MCPS.

For example, in DC1's private British school, they were teaching multiplication tables to FIRST graders (started at step counting and jam tarts, and ended by learning tables off by heart). In the French public school system, they learn this in second grade. In MCPS, they learn multiplication in third grade. And everything is like this.

The French grade their primary students on a numbers scale that is either out of 20 or out of 10. One point off for every error on your homework or test. Everything is graded, the reports come home with all grades and written recommendations. The parents know exactly how their kid is performing and what the teacher thinks: no sweet talking here!

The average French and British students end up with a greater and more rigorous body of knowledge than the average students here who waste more time with "manipulatives", "multiple strategies", etc. They have better written essay skills, while the US is stronger on oral presentations (which is great).

My problem with MCPS and I fear, many other US school systems, is that they expect too little of their average students. They cater to their LD students much BETTER than French and British systems - I also have a LD child receiving services, so I know. I am grateful for that.

Students here have coasted for years on US economic power which has given them comfortable lifestyles for mediocre performance. Now the economy is in decline and other countries are taking the lead, the next generation of students should be taught to a higher level, otherwise they will not be able to compete in the global marketplace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
My children have been exposed to the French and British school systems (private and public) before coming here to MCPS. While no system is perfect, they DO expect much higher standards of performance from their average students compared to MCPS.

For example, in DC1's private British school, they were teaching multiplication tables to FIRST graders (started at step counting and jam tarts, and ended by learning tables off by heart). In the French public school system, they learn this in second grade. In MCPS, they learn multiplication in third grade. And everything is like this.

The French grade their primary students on a numbers scale that is either out of 20 or out of 10. One point off for every error on your homework or test. Everything is graded, the reports come home with all grades and written recommendations. The parents know exactly how their kid is performing and what the teacher thinks: no sweet talking here!

The average French and British students end up with a greater and more rigorous body of knowledge than the average students here who waste more time with "manipulatives", "multiple strategies", etc. They have better written essay skills, while the US is stronger on oral presentations (which is great).

My problem with MCPS and I fear, many other US school systems, is that they expect too little of their average students. They cater to their LD students much BETTER than French and British systems - I also have a LD child receiving services, so I know. I am grateful for that.

Students here have coasted for years on US economic power which has given them comfortable lifestyles for mediocre performance. Now the economy is in decline and other countries are taking the lead, the next generation of students should be taught to a higher level, otherwise they will not be able to compete in the global marketplace.

You have valid points, but as you said this is the general U.S. system, it is not a problem created by MOCO or 2.0.
Even before 2.0, 1st graders were not doing multiplication. On the whole, I think there are a lot of things that can be done to improve the ENTIRE educational system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I honestly believe that these kids going through the "everyone shoots for P" phase will be very unprepared once they emerge into an actual grade based system. The super bright kids will be fine but the upper middle, middle and lower performing students will be in for a shock rather than being well prepared from their earlier education.

Then I hope it will reassure you to hear that when I was in elementary school, we did not get any grades at all. None. No letter grades, no O/S/I. No graded assignments, no class grades until 7th grade (the first year of junior high). And yet we all adjusted to grades in 7th grade, without a shock.

I do not understand the argument that children need grades in elementary school so that they will be prepared for grades in middle school. It makes as much sense to me as arguing that children need grades in preschool so that they will be prepared for grades in elementary school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
My children have been exposed to the French and British school systems (private and public) before coming here to MCPS. While no system is perfect, they DO expect much higher standards of performance from their average students compared to MCPS.

For example, in DC1's private British school, they were teaching multiplication tables to FIRST graders (started at step counting and jam tarts, and ended by learning tables off by heart). In the French public school system, they learn this in second grade. In MCPS, they learn multiplication in third grade. And everything is like this.

I don't think that it's valid to compare British private schools to US public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I honestly believe that these kids going through the "everyone shoots for P" phase will be very unprepared once they emerge into an actual grade based system. The super bright kids will be fine but the upper middle, middle and lower performing students will be in for a shock rather than being well prepared from their earlier education.

Then I hope it will reassure you to hear that when I was in elementary school, we did not get any grades at all. None. No letter grades, no O/S/I. No graded assignments, no class grades until 7th grade (the first year of junior high). And yet we all adjusted to grades in 7th grade, without a shock.

I do not understand the argument that children need grades in elementary school so that they will be prepared for grades in middle school. It makes as much sense to me as arguing that children need grades in preschool so that they will be prepared for grades in elementary school.

What is so hard to understand? There are a lot of folks who use grades as their kids' primary motivator. In my book, grades are a tool, but not the motivator. They are an assessment tool, one of many, but dern sure not the primary thing that motivates my kid to do well.
Matter of fact, I'm trying to make "teach" my kid that doing her best, and reaching her highest level is the goal, and that is not SOLELY chasing the grade.

[Anonymous]

You have valid points, but as you said this is the general U.S. system, it is not a problem created by MOCO or 2.0.
Even before 2.0, 1st graders were not doing multiplication. On the whole, I think there are a lot of things that can be done to improve the ENTIRE educational system.

This is terribly weak argument. You can't let off MCPS off the hook by saying all US based education is sub par. US education including MCPS needs to become competitive with countries that rank higher. MCPS is going in the opposite direction with 2.0. They missed on opportunity to improve and instead backslid. MCPS is accountable to its tax payers, students, and parents. They deserve better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You have valid points, but as you said this is the general U.S. system, it is not a problem created by MOCO or 2.0.
Even before 2.0, 1st graders were not doing multiplication. On the whole, I think there are a lot of things that can be done to improve the ENTIRE educational system.

This is terribly weak argument. You can't let off MCPS off the hook by saying all US based education is sub par. US education including MCPS needs to become competitive with countries that rank higher. MCPS is going in the opposite direction with 2.0. They missed on opportunity to improve and instead backslid. MCPS is accountable to its tax payers, students, and parents. They deserve better.

2.0 is MCPS's Common Core curriculum. The Common Core curriculum does not have a math standard for multiplication in second grade. MCPS is using the Common Core curriuclum because the whole state of Maryland, like 44 other states, is using the Common Core curriculum.

If you think that all second-graders should be able to multiply, your disagreement is not with MCPS. It is with the Common Core curriculum.

What's more, according to the Common Core curriculum, the Common Core standards are comparable to standards in other "top-performing" countries. What are all second-graders supposed to be able to do in math in Finland? What are all second-graders supposed to be able to do in math in Singapore? What are all second-graders supposed to be able to do in math in [other country of your choice]? Please find out and report back. I would love to know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My children have been exposed to the French and British school systems (private and public) before coming here to MCPS. While no system is perfect, they DO expect much higher standards of performance from their average students compared to MCPS.

For example, in DC1's private British school, they were teaching multiplication tables to FIRST graders (started at step counting and jam tarts, and ended by learning tables off by heart). In the French public school system, they learn this in second grade. In MCPS, they learn multiplication in third grade. And everything is like this.

I don't think that it's valid to compare British private schools to US public schools.

You have missed the point.
Many, many school systems around the world, especially the Asian systems like those in Japan, Korea, Singapore, etc, but also some European systems like I wrote, are training the next generation to be much more competitive than here because their schooling is more rigorous.

Feel free to quibble on minor details. The big picture is that MCPS, and the American approach to education in general, are not sustainable in the long-term. We need curriculae with informative factual content, not "higher-order thinking / creative strategies". We need to use detailed and specific measures to evaluate students' work, not meaningless Ps and Is. We need to train teachers to be precise and rigorous in their teaching, not laissez-faire. We need to pay these teachers more to begin with, so that the cream of the crop will be attracted to the teaching profession! No more wishy-washy murky nonsense.