Requirements for medical school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:44% of applicants get a spot. Among those that don’t, some take a year to get more relevant experience, some go the DO route and some do Caribbean or hang it up.

The admission rate is higher than when I applied and to me, 44% admission (with other roads in for those who don’t get in their first go round) doesn’t seem too bad.

It’s stressful to the young adults going through the application process for sure but guess what else is stressful? Med school, residency, and a career in medicine!

Is a 44% admission rate for a highly sought after, respected, well paid job so shocking?

I agree 44 isn't bad and I think most reasonable people would agree with you. But that also means 56% of applicants have to reexam their paths after so many years working towards goal of becoming doctors. That, i think, is a daunting situation.

agree - and there is an untold number of applicants who don't even get as far as applying because medical school has become such a game of perfection. And with internships, research, shadowing, "mission trips" - it is becoming a game of perfection for the wealthy. I'm not sure this is how we make the best doctors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kid who went to Ivy now in medical school.

It was NOT easy to get research positions.

Your think that was hard. Try getting one from a state Uni.

I think it’s hard for lots of kids. Just wanted to give perspective on posts upthread that made it sound time-consuming, but easy to get.

That was not accurate for my kid or her friends despite applying widely.

Same here. Getting research jobs was very difficult! As was finding doctors to allow shadowing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:44% of applicants get a spot. Among those that don’t, some take a year to get more relevant experience, some go the DO route and some do Caribbean or hang it up.

The admission rate is higher than when I applied and to me, 44% admission (with other roads in for those who don’t get in their first go round) doesn’t seem too bad.

It’s stressful to the young adults going through the application process for sure but guess what else is stressful? Med school, residency, and a career in medicine!

Is a 44% admission rate for a highly sought after, respected, well paid job so shocking?

I agree 44 isn't bad and I think most reasonable people would agree with you. But that also means 56% of applicants have to reexam their paths after so many years working towards goal of becoming doctors. That, i think, is a daunting situation.

A few among the 56% are right on the border, will get in with a reapplication as long as they honestly assess the weak points and remedy (post-bacc, masters, retake mcat). The majority of the 56% rejected had many signs along the way that it would be a longshot: mediocre grades, below average MCAT, history of struggling compared to peers in grasping difficult stem concepts. Not getting in should have been expected and they were likely encouraged to have a backup plan

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kid who went to Ivy now in medical school.

It was NOT easy to get research positions.

I have kids at a T10 and an ivy currently, and I went to a different ivy. The current situation at their schools is anyone who wants research gets it. You just ask faculty in any basic sciences and if they do not have openings they know a lab who does. Med schools do not require that it is strictly medical research, it can be any rigorous science research. Many labs with profs are work-study. That is what I did 27 years ago: work study as a sophomore that led to summer job, paid, and eventually published. My alma mater has 10x the support for financial aid kids now, many more work study spots and other paid research that did not exist then. The clinical experience is much easier now: multiple EMT groups on campus and in the community, medical assistant roles in the hospital, all done during the semester. There are some trips that are funded by the school though I believe you can only do one per student. Some are spring or winter break, 9 days, but yield 75 hours of service and clinical experience.
There is no need to be wealthy to get the experience in fact many labs prioritize the work study kids as they should.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I went to a family reunion recently where my cousins nice, bright hs senior was not only telling people (who asked about college plans) that they were pre-med but also that they were “going to go into trauma surgery.”

This is not a criticism of the teen (who is obviously just a kid) but I do think this dynamic of talking about being a pre-med and trauma surgeon in waiting, etc before you’ve taken orgo is part of the problem.

Kids feel like changing course (if orgo turns out to be insurmountable or they don’t get in two go rounds and aren’t willing to consider DO school) is a loss of standing (that they haven’t achieved yet but have been kind of getting on loan by talking about their plans) and that sucks!

Meh. When I was 6 I told everyone I was going to be a veterinarian. I'm not a veterinarian.

Yes, but if you were a college junior saying it (and saying it, ad nauseum) the dynamic would be different.

The college junior doesn't know what they don't know. They will figure out, once they get to med school, if they do, that they probably don't want to be a "trauma surgeon." Or that even if they do, that it is a very, very tough match that they probably won't make.

Like I said, I didn't become a vet, lol (good thing I didn't too, because that's a rough job). But I did become a lawyer. I went to law school fulling intending to do anti-death penalty work. I came out a tax attorney. It's fine to think you know what you want and shift gears later. That is part of being young. And a "college junior" is young.

I agree it’s very young and they don’t know what they don’t know. I guess my point is more that it would be nice if we would all take what kids (including clllege kids) say with a low key “great, that sounds good” and keep it moving attitude.

Because the kids ( being kids) say things and then their mom (usually) is often proud and mildly braggy which the kid picks up on and so feels more invested in the stated plan (which they have no idea if they are suited to or would like) so they double down and therefore mom and dad amp up the kudos and (good natured) pride in the prospective accomplishments, etc.

I just wish kids didn’t feel at the age of 20 or 21 it was some type of failing to say, you know what, on second thought maybe I’ll look into other options.

Agree it is parents who make it worse. Parents shouldn’t be involved at all. None of ours were when we applied. It is up to them to do it. We should just nod and let them work it out, pay the app fees, wait for them to tell us if they get interviews or what their Mcat score was.

[Anonymous]

Why do so many doctors seem terribly ineffective, then, if we are selecting for the cream of the crop?!

The last cream my derm recommended did nothing, last physical didn’t even involve taking clothes off (don’t they need to see if something looks off?), injection of a steroid cream for some little bump that was bothering me did nothing —- yet I was charged a lot for all of these visits. No accountability! No monitoring of patient care! Certainly no use of advanced math or organic chem! And yes, I only go to US-trained doctors from top schools. Many other professions have a LOT more accountability than this. I get that the human body is complicated, but I’m not buying it that physicians need all of these weed-outs to make a treatment recommendation (which may or may not work), bill the patient, rinse and repeat.

[Anonymous]

STEP 1 should be done before medical school so more time can be spent on clinical stuff. MCAT isn't nearly as good of a predictor of medical aptitude as STEP 1.

[Anonymous]

PP here - I do think surgeons and some other specialties have greater accountability. But we put everyone in medicine through the wringer. Maybe it’s not necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t decide if I should discourage or encourage medical school. I want to support their (hard earned) accomplishments but don’t want to lead them astray.

It's a rough job nowadays. Insurance companies (led by Medicare) dictate way too much with regard to patient care and the amount of time doctors have with patients is shrinking as we speak. Private equity is making it worse. Much worse. If you want to go to med school because you see it as a respectable (or impressive?) job with high pay, you might want to skip it -- it probably won't be worth it for you and there are easier ways to make money. If you are truly fascinated by the human body and how it works and can't see yourself happy doing anything but treating patients, it might be a good fit even with all the hassle.

What are these "easier ways to make money"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

These "smart" kids can always bypass the US requirements and get their degrees at a caribbean med school.

We also have a lot of Indian educated doctors practicing in the country now. I assume they may also go to India to pursue a medical degree.

It is significantly and demonstrably harder to match into a US residency as a US student who went to the Caribbean for medical school. DO school in the US is a more secure path for those that are borderline for MD program admittance. Though some DO programs have 30% scramble/unmathced rates, most are around 15%. US MD programs are still the best way into US Residency programs, with almost all having 99% match rates.

Still much much much easier to match from Caribbean than from an international (MBBS) medical school.
Also, the stats don't account for the fact that Caribbean students are significantly worse than US MD students in terms of academics and thus generally do worse on STEP 2 and are more likely to fail STEP 1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many posters saying Bs/Cs not good enough and may need to spread out coursework if GPA not great. Are these kids cut out for med school?

Hundreds of hours shadowing, clinical volunteering, community service- hundreds of hours- what is the purpose of so many hours as an undergrad?

Then in med school- kids routine staying up until 2-3am studying… how is this good? Why are they cramming in so much information in 1-1.5 years? Wouldn’t the gap year be better spent learning some of this? Seems better to space out med school over an extra year instead of spacing out premed/gap over so many years. Sure, it’s great learn everything but is it really better to learn multi variable calculus/linear algebra or advanced physics topics instead of taking more time to learn anatomy/physiology/pathophysiology?
Most vast majority of physicians use algebra 1 at the most. And if you need other advanced topics, you get that in residency.

If you want to spend an extra $100k, be our guest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

Because Americans are lazy and don’t want to put in the effort to get there. We are into instant gratification. There, I said it.

While you may have a general point, instant true with respect to medical schools. It isn’t about putting in effort. Plenty of kids want in and are willing to do work.

Sure, they want in. But are they willing to grind through 4 tough years of classes, plus a residency for 3-5 years, then a fellowship? And to accept the fact that they will be in their 30s when they are finally finished and ready to join the regular work force? In my experience, few "kids" can go the distance that this requires.

But why are we importing doctors...?

because we have a lot of rural, primary care residency spots that US medical grads aren't particularly inclined towards, hence the need to import doctors who will take those spots. There are 6 year BSMD programs for rural medicine, btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many posters saying Bs/Cs not good enough and may need to spread out coursework if GPA not great. Are these kids cut out for med school?

Hundreds of hours shadowing, clinical volunteering, community service- hundreds of hours- what is the purpose of so many hours as an undergrad?

Then in med school- kids routine staying up until 2-3am studying… how is this good? Why are they cramming in so much information in 1-1.5 years? Wouldn’t the gap year be better spent learning some of this? Seems better to space out med school over an extra year instead of spacing out premed/gap over so many years. Sure, it’s great learn everything but is it really better to learn multi variable calculus/linear algebra or advanced physics topics instead of taking more time to learn anatomy/physiology/pathophysiology?
Most vast majority of physicians use algebra 1 at the most. And if you need other advanced topics, you get that in residency.

to understand the kidney, intestines, the knee, the brain, healthy and diseased, as well as pharmacology and technologies for imaging and surgery, you need to thoroughly understand biochem which needs orgo and gen chem as a prereq, and physics mechanics and E&M which need calculus as a prereq.

Why stop there? To thoroughly understand calculus you need real analysis, and to thoroughly understand analysis you need formal mathematical like set theory, and to thoroughly understand that you need logic, and to thoroughly understand logic you need philosophy...

This is self-evidently ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites.

This is not true. There are 6000 more residency spots than US MD/DO grads per year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kid is doing a BS/MD program. I highly recommend this route, it's a huge relief.

+1. This needs to be emphasized. Parents of HS students interested in medicine: Look for direct admit programs!