Harvard Instituting Remedial Math Class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has many levels of math for freshman. I wonder how many are in Math MA5. 5 days a week, how many hours? TO for so many years was an awful decision.

you have to wonder how many of the students in those classes were TO.

or how many were recruited athletes or legacies.

Legacies at Harvard have 30 points higher SAT than the class average. It does give you an edge in early decisions but they are still competitive students. On the other hand, athletes pull the average down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, this new class is the same as the old class except that it's five days a week instead of three days, the old class will continue to be taught in its present form and schedule, and the old class is identical to the ancient class from thirty years ago? Do I have that right? I think so, but let's check the Harvard Course Catalog to be sure:

MATH MA (LEC)
Introduction to Functions and Calculus I
Course ID: 111161
2024 Fall (4 Credits)
No meeting time listed
Kate Penner
The study of functions and their rates of change. Fundamental ideas of calculus are introduced early and used to provide a framework for the study of mathematical modeling involving algebraic, exponential, and logarithmic functions. Thorough understanding of differential calculus promoted by year long reinforcement. There will be required workshops Tuesdays.

MATH MA5 (010)
An In-depth Introduction to Functions and Calculus I
Course ID: 224755
2024 Fall (4 Credits)
MTWRF 1030 AM - 1145 AM
Kate Penner, Justin Hancock
The study of functions and their rates of change. Fundamental ideas of calculus are introduced early and used to provide a framework for the study of mathematical modeling involving algebraic, exponential, and logarithmic functions. A thorough understanding of differential calculus is promoted by year-long reinforcement.
Course Note: This is a version of Math MA that meets 5 days a week. The extra support will target foundational skills in algebra, geometry, and quantitative reasoning that will help you unlock success in Math MA. Students will be identified for enrollment in Math MA5 via a skill check before the start of the term.

Wait, what was in the course catalog thirty years ago? Lucky, I have one on hand:

Harvard University
Faculty of Arts and Sciences
Courses of Instruction 1991-92
Mathematics Ar. Precalculus Mathematics (2050)
Deborah Hughes Hallett and members of the Department
Review of functions, graphing, logarithms, and trigonometry. Emphasizes problem solving and provides a preparation for Mathematics 1, economics, and basic science courses. Taught in small sections which begin at a point appropriate to the students in the Section.
Half course (full term, repeated spring term). Fall: Section 1, M., W., F., at 10; Section II, M., W., F., at 12; Section III, Tu., Th., 10-11:30. Spring: Section I, M., W., F., at 10. (XI)

Yeppers, that all checks! So, what's this thread about again? Wait, I know! It's nothing more than an opportunity for DCUM to, in no particular order, (i) denigrate Harvard as overrated, "too woke" (whatever that means), and anti-Semitic (not yet mentioned, but it's coming); (ii) celebrate the inherent superiority of Asian students, every single one of whom, if DCUM is to be believed, arrived in the United States four months ago, penniless, not knowing a word of English, and still managed to achieve higher SAT scores than all of their black classmates; and (iii) complain about those black classmates through coded language about "equity," "diversity," and "quotas" and whining about "TO" (which apparently means "test optional" and not NFL great Terrell Owens). Carry on, DCUM!

The old Math MA+MB is a respin of ancient Ar+1A, to spread calculus across the whole year while mixing in precalc. (This is good. Basic Calculus is introduced far too late in math sequence.)

(1A is still an option for students ready for Calc 1.)

The new MA5 is intensive tutoring for MA, for students not even ready to start Precalculus. It's like Math 180 / Algebra Support in high school.

One has to ask why students didn't cover this high school diploma requirement in high school.

One also has to ask why colleges are stuck admitting students blindly and then testing them when they arrive. Shouldn't they already know before the students arrive on campus?

If these students applied to Emory, they'd be redirected to the attached community college and told to apply to transfer to the university in 1 or 2 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, this new class is the same as the old class except that it's five days a week instead of three days, the old class will continue to be taught in its present form and schedule, and the old class is identical to the ancient class from thirty years ago? Do I have that right? I think so, but let's check the Harvard Course Catalog to be sure:

MATH MA (LEC)
Introduction to Functions and Calculus I
Course ID: 111161
2024 Fall (4 Credits)
No meeting time listed
Kate Penner
The study of functions and their rates of change. Fundamental ideas of calculus are introduced early and used to provide a framework for the study of mathematical modeling involving algebraic, exponential, and logarithmic functions. Thorough understanding of differential calculus promoted by year long reinforcement. There will be required workshops Tuesdays.

MATH MA5 (010)
An In-depth Introduction to Functions and Calculus I
Course ID: 224755
2024 Fall (4 Credits)
MTWRF 1030 AM - 1145 AM
Kate Penner, Justin Hancock
The study of functions and their rates of change. Fundamental ideas of calculus are introduced early and used to provide a framework for the study of mathematical modeling involving algebraic, exponential, and logarithmic functions. A thorough understanding of differential calculus is promoted by year-long reinforcement.
Course Note: This is a version of Math MA that meets 5 days a week. The extra support will target foundational skills in algebra, geometry, and quantitative reasoning that will help you unlock success in Math MA. Students will be identified for enrollment in Math MA5 via a skill check before the start of the term.

Wait, what was in the course catalog thirty years ago? Lucky, I have one on hand:

Harvard University
Faculty of Arts and Sciences
Courses of Instruction 1991-92
Mathematics Ar. Precalculus Mathematics (2050)
Deborah Hughes Hallett and members of the Department
Review of functions, graphing, logarithms, and trigonometry. Emphasizes problem solving and provides a preparation for Mathematics 1, economics, and basic science courses. Taught in small sections which begin at a point appropriate to the students in the Section.
Half course (full term, repeated spring term). Fall: Section 1, M., W., F., at 10; Section II, M., W., F., at 12; Section III, Tu., Th., 10-11:30. Spring: Section I, M., W., F., at 10. (XI)

Yeppers, that all checks! So, what's this thread about again? Wait, I know! It's nothing more than an opportunity for DCUM to, in no particular order, (i) denigrate Harvard as overrated, "too woke" (whatever that means), and anti-Semitic (not yet mentioned, but it's coming); (ii) celebrate the inherent superiority of Asian students, every single one of whom, if DCUM is to be believed, arrived in the United States four months ago, penniless, not knowing a word of English, and still managed to achieve higher SAT scores than all of their black classmates; and (iii) complain about those black classmates through coded language about "equity," "diversity," and "quotas" and whining about "TO" (which apparently means "test optional" and not NFL great Terrell Owens). Carry on, DCUM!

The old Math MA+MB is a respin of ancient Ar+1A, to spread calculus across the whole year while mixing in precalc. (This is good. Basic Calculus is introduced far too late in math sequence.)

(1A is still an option for students ready for Calc 1.)

The new MA5 is intensive tutoring for MA, for students not even ready to start Precalculus. It's like Math 180 / Algebra Support in high school.

One has to ask why students didn't cover this high school diploma requirement in high school.

One also has to ask why colleges are stuck admitting students blindly and then testing them when they arrive. Shouldn't they already know before the students arrive on campus?

If these students applied to Emory, they'd be redirected to the attached community college and told to apply to transfer to the university in 1 or 2 years.

Do you mean their Oxford campus? Because that’s a weirdly passive-aggressive way to describe it if so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of MIT grads who are not writers. I'm not shocked that there are Harvard kids who are top 1% in something who are not great at calc. Not everyone can be everything.

But!!! I was assured by everyone on this board that my kid didn’t have a shot at a top 20 school if they hadn’t made an A in AP Calculus BC (plus a 5 on the AP exam).

All that aside, if you’re Harvard and admitting 3% of the student that apply, you can, in fact, select for kids that are good at everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math M isn't a new course, and isn't remedial. It's functions and introductory calculus, which are college level calculus. This is a section of the same course that meets 5 days instead of 3 so that kids can get more support while taking this college level class.

"“What we thought was the best thing to do — instead of adding another course before MA — was to add more time and support into MA for students who would need it.”"

Previous commenters might be great at math but lack reading skills - or the willingness to actually read the article before blathering.

"Students don’t have the skills that we had intended downstream in the curriculum, and so it creates different trajectories in students’ math abilities,” Kelly added." That sounds like these kids aren't capable of taking a math course that begins with pre-calculus. Other schools would call that remedial for a college student, but these are Harvard kids, so we can't have that designation

+++ yes this is struggling with pre-calc. TO led to too many unqualified students getting in to what is supposed to be an elite college for the brightest students. It has long drifted from that goal; the TO phase was a new low in student quality.

This is fairly obvious. If it wasn't due to to TO, then Harvard would've had this type of class pre TO.

IMO, Harvard is holding on to legacy because they aren't admitting the best anymore. MIT will become more prestigious in terms of actual academic strength than Harvard.

it kinda already is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TO idiots. That's what you get.

Or maybe you are all kidding yourselves that Ivy kids are some rarified, superior species …🤔

Well, not anymore, they're not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of MIT grads who are not writers. I'm not shocked that there are Harvard kids who are top 1% in something who are not great at calc. Not everyone can be everything.

My experience differs — I spent my career in a policy area that is highly technical, and of all the people (Ivy and non) I’ve employed, MIT grads have been the most consistently impressive and well rounded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow. I assume this is directed at first gen students, but still seems pretty nuts.

why would you assume that?

Many Asian American students are first gen, and they score very high in math, the highest of all groups.

For the most part it’s because all they do is study.

But they also tend to have better extracurriculars too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of MIT grads who are not writers. I'm not shocked that there are Harvard kids who are top 1% in something who are not great at calc. Not everyone can be everything.

pre-calc is not top 1% for a college student and certainly not for a student at Harvard

+1 why does Harvard admit such low caliber students. Even my B student is taking Calc junior year.

Your kid might find themself failing the placement test at Harvard.

[Anonymous]

All this chatter and no one knows how many of the 1700 students are enrolling in this new class, and how many are switching from the existing "not ready for college math" class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, this new class is the same as the old class except that it's five days a week instead of three days, the old class will continue to be taught in its present form and schedule, and the old class is identical to the ancient class from thirty years ago? Do I have that right? I think so, but let's check the Harvard Course Catalog to be sure:

MATH MA (LEC)
Introduction to Functions and Calculus I
Course ID: 111161
2024 Fall (4 Credits)
No meeting time listed
Kate Penner
The study of functions and their rates of change. Fundamental ideas of calculus are introduced early and used to provide a framework for the study of mathematical modeling involving algebraic, exponential, and logarithmic functions. Thorough understanding of differential calculus promoted by year long reinforcement. There will be required workshops Tuesdays.

MATH MA5 (010)
An In-depth Introduction to Functions and Calculus I
Course ID: 224755
2024 Fall (4 Credits)
MTWRF 1030 AM - 1145 AM
Kate Penner, Justin Hancock
The study of functions and their rates of change. Fundamental ideas of calculus are introduced early and used to provide a framework for the study of mathematical modeling involving algebraic, exponential, and logarithmic functions. A thorough understanding of differential calculus is promoted by year-long reinforcement.
Course Note: This is a version of Math MA that meets 5 days a week. The extra support will target foundational skills in algebra, geometry, and quantitative reasoning that will help you unlock success in Math MA. Students will be identified for enrollment in Math MA5 via a skill check before the start of the term.

Wait, what was in the course catalog thirty years ago? Lucky, I have one on hand:

Harvard University
Faculty of Arts and Sciences
Courses of Instruction 1991-92
Mathematics Ar. Precalculus Mathematics (2050)
Deborah Hughes Hallett and members of the Department
Review of functions, graphing, logarithms, and trigonometry. Emphasizes problem solving and provides a preparation for Mathematics 1, economics, and basic science courses. Taught in small sections which begin at a point appropriate to the students in the Section.
Half course (full term, repeated spring term). Fall: Section 1, M., W., F., at 10; Section II, M., W., F., at 12; Section III, Tu., Th., 10-11:30. Spring: Section I, M., W., F., at 10. (XI)

Yeppers, that all checks! So, what's this thread about again? Wait, I know! It's nothing more than an opportunity for DCUM to, in no particular order, (i) denigrate Harvard as overrated, "too woke" (whatever that means), and anti-Semitic (not yet mentioned, but it's coming); (ii) celebrate the inherent superiority of Asian students, every single one of whom, if DCUM is to be believed, arrived in the United States four months ago, penniless, not knowing a word of English, and still managed to achieve higher SAT scores than all of their black classmates; and (iii) complain about those black classmates through coded language about "equity," "diversity," and "quotas" and whining about "TO" (which apparently means "test optional" and not NFL great Terrell Owens). Carry on, DCUM!

The old Math MA+MB is a respin of ancient Ar+1A, to spread calculus across the whole year while mixing in precalc. (This is good. Basic Calculus is introduced far too late in math sequence.)

(1A is still an option for students ready for Calc 1.)

The new MA5 is intensive tutoring for MA, for students not even ready to start Precalculus. It's like Math 180 / Algebra Support in high school.

One has to ask why students didn't cover this high school diploma requirement in high school.

One also has to ask why colleges are stuck admitting students blindly and then testing them when they arrive. Shouldn't they already know before the students arrive on campus?

If these students applied to Emory, they'd be redirected to the attached community college and told to apply to transfer to the university in 1 or 2 years.

They aren't admitting them blind. They can see their coursework on their transcript. But without the objective yardstick of a standardized exam, they have much less information than they need to evaluate the transcript.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of MIT grads who are not writers. I'm not shocked that there are Harvard kids who are top 1% in something who are not great at calc. Not everyone can be everything.

pre-calc is not top 1% for a college student and certainly not for a student at Harvard

+1 why does Harvard admit such low caliber students. Even my B student is taking Calc junior year.

Your kid might find themself failing the placement test at Harvard.

I would not tell my kid to apply to Harvard. SAT scores are a better predictor of academic success in college than GPA. That's why Harvard now requires test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know plenty of MIT grads who are not writers. I'm not shocked that there are Harvard kids who are top 1% in something who are not great at calc. Not everyone can be everything.

pre-calc is not top 1% for a college student and certainly not for a student at Harvard

Says who? This is who Harvard wants. What you want for Harvard is something else. It is your expectations that need adjustment.

I agree. This point seems lost based on many comments. What a person thinks or feels a college/university should value or prioritize does not always align to the school's values and mission. Harvard puts in place a program to educate students and people are mad it's not the right students.

It is interesting that with almost 3,000 4-year colleges, folks get worked up over this one. I mean, how many students out of their undergraduate enrollment are even taking this class? Not sure why folks care so much. Alum maybe?

I agree that Harvard can prioritize equity and diversity over academic excellence if it so chooses. The reason it’s news is because Harvard has spent most of its 388 year history emphasizing scholarship and building a reputation for choosing the “best and brightest” (even when it was a gentleman’s club). Just scan through any discussion on this board re: the value of paying Ivy League tuition vs. in state public and parents will confidently assert that it’s worth it to ensure that your bright kid will be surrounded by other stellar students. That hasn’t been their goal for some time now, but the results of test optional policies has revealed to what extent that’s true, and it’s an adjustment for some people who haven’t been paying attention.

(Also, it’s a bit of told you so after everyone was haughtily assured that these Admissions officers “know what they’re doing” and didn’t need to see test scores to select highly qualified students. Instituting an entire new program means that this wasn’t just one or two kids that needed extra support. If Harvard screwed it up, even with the quality of their applicant pool, how bad is it at every other test optional college in America?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has many levels of math for freshman. I wonder how many are in Math MA5. 5 days a week, how many hours? TO for so many years was an awful decision.

you have to wonder how many of the students in those classes were TO.

or how many were recruited athletes or legacies.

Legacies at Harvard have 30 points higher SAT than the class average. It does give you an edge in early decisions but they are still competitive students. On the other hand, athletes pull the average down.

Yes but legacies frequently don't need a hook that way the proletariat do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, this new class is the same as the old class except that it's five days a week instead of three days, the old class will continue to be taught in its present form and schedule, and the old class is identical to the ancient class from thirty years ago? Do I have that right? I think so, but let's check the Harvard Course Catalog to be sure:

MATH MA (LEC)
Introduction to Functions and Calculus I
Course ID: 111161
2024 Fall (4 Credits)
No meeting time listed
Kate Penner
The study of functions and their rates of change. Fundamental ideas of calculus are introduced early and used to provide a framework for the study of mathematical modeling involving algebraic, exponential, and logarithmic functions. Thorough understanding of differential calculus promoted by year long reinforcement. There will be required workshops Tuesdays.

MATH MA5 (010)
An In-depth Introduction to Functions and Calculus I
Course ID: 224755
2024 Fall (4 Credits)
MTWRF 1030 AM - 1145 AM
Kate Penner, Justin Hancock
The study of functions and their rates of change. Fundamental ideas of calculus are introduced early and used to provide a framework for the study of mathematical modeling involving algebraic, exponential, and logarithmic functions. A thorough understanding of differential calculus is promoted by year-long reinforcement.
Course Note: This is a version of Math MA that meets 5 days a week. The extra support will target foundational skills in algebra, geometry, and quantitative reasoning that will help you unlock success in Math MA. Students will be identified for enrollment in Math MA5 via a skill check before the start of the term.

Wait, what was in the course catalog thirty years ago? Lucky, I have one on hand:

Harvard University
Faculty of Arts and Sciences
Courses of Instruction 1991-92
Mathematics Ar. Precalculus Mathematics (2050)
Deborah Hughes Hallett and members of the Department
Review of functions, graphing, logarithms, and trigonometry. Emphasizes problem solving and provides a preparation for Mathematics 1, economics, and basic science courses. Taught in small sections which begin at a point appropriate to the students in the Section.
Half course (full term, repeated spring term). Fall: Section 1, M., W., F., at 10; Section II, M., W., F., at 12; Section III, Tu., Th., 10-11:30. Spring: Section I, M., W., F., at 10. (XI)

Yeppers, that all checks! So, what's this thread about again? Wait, I know! It's nothing more than an opportunity for DCUM to, in no particular order, (i) denigrate Harvard as overrated, "too woke" (whatever that means), and anti-Semitic (not yet mentioned, but it's coming); (ii) celebrate the inherent superiority of Asian students, every single one of whom, if DCUM is to be believed, arrived in the United States four months ago, penniless, not knowing a word of English, and still managed to achieve higher SAT scores than all of their black classmates; and (iii) complain about those black classmates through coded language about "equity," "diversity," and "quotas" and whining about "TO" (which apparently means "test optional" and not NFL great Terrell Owens). Carry on, DCUM!

None of the bolded was included in the course description from 30 years ago. It doesn’t mention algebra, because it was assumed you already know it. It certainly doesn’t mention of extra support being provided for “foundational skills in algebra and geometry.”