IVF embryos are people too

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The facts of the original case are beyond bizarre and seem like some bad movie. A “patient” at a fertility clinic “eloped” and broke into the room that stored frozen embryos, broke into the storage and grabbed several frozen embryos (in their containers) with their bare hands. Since that was basically a serious freezer, the eloper’s hands were severely burned immediately from the freezing metal and so the eloper dropped all of the embryos he/she was carrying and them broke onto the floor. When the breach was discovered the frozen embryos essentially had died.

So this was a joint lawsuit from 3 of the affected families who lost embryos for “unlawful death”.

WTF?!?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish I could post this in the thread about Rob Reiner’s documentary on Christian Nationalism but it got locked. This is language in a real court ruling in America.

The Catholic Church strongly opposes IVF.

The Catholic Church? I lost all respect for the CC during the HIV/AIDS epidemic when they opposed condom use (because they oppose contraception except for the rhythm method) and promoted "chastity." Never mind, how they protected pedophile priests...

The twin cruelties of denying birth control and their child raping road show is why I despise the Catholic Church, add to that their worsening the HIV/AIDS crisis and their political action and they’re even worse.

I guess denying IVF is why they need to have more White babies for the pipeline or whatever the Handmaiden said.

The Church’s teaching on the immorality of IVF is based upon God ordained natural law. Chastity outside of marriage between a man and a woman has always been part of the Catechism. The Catholic Church is furthermore growing fastest in Subsaharan Africa so it has nothing to do with white babies (the Church is shrinking fastest in Western Europe and North America. The next Pope may very well be a black African.
Oh, and there’s a very special place in Hell for child raping priests.

Folks that do not believe in IVF should not get IVF treatment. Other people were given an amazing IVF treatment by their God to allow them to have a family and it does nto concern you in any way.

I have one vote just like you do. My vote is determined by my conscience formed by the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I am catholic and I have a children conceived by IVF. God told me to do it and was right.

NP
You chose to go against the teachings of the church. You have the right to make that choice, but that choice makes you NOT a practicing Catholic.

I turn down the greatest gift god has given me and THAT makes me a Catholic. I don't think so.

If you believe god has given you that gift, that is your option. Others believe in science.

I believe in science. My argument is that for every religious person telling me that IVF is forbidden by this or that church there is a flip argument that IVF is encouraged by this or that church.

In my opinion reproductive decisions are private and personal. No one has to treat infertility with IVF but no one should be denied that treatment if they believe that it is the right decision for their situation.

"This chruch or that church" perhaps, but NOT the Catholic church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish I could post this in the thread about Rob Reiner’s documentary on Christian Nationalism but it got locked. This is language in a real court ruling in America.

The Catholic Church strongly opposes IVF.

The Catholic Church? I lost all respect for the CC during the HIV/AIDS epidemic when they opposed condom use (because they oppose contraception except for the rhythm method) and promoted "chastity." Never mind, how they protected pedophile priests...

The twin cruelties of denying birth control and their child raping road show is why I despise the Catholic Church, add to that their worsening the HIV/AIDS crisis and their political action and they’re even worse.

I guess denying IVF is why they need to have more White babies for the pipeline or whatever the Handmaiden said.

The Church’s teaching on the immorality of IVF is based upon God ordained natural law. Chastity outside of marriage between a man and a woman has always been part of the Catechism. The Catholic Church is furthermore growing fastest in Subsaharan Africa so it has nothing to do with white babies (the Church is shrinking fastest in Western Europe and North America. The next Pope may very well be a black African.
Oh, and there’s a very special place in Hell for child raping priests.

Folks that do not believe in IVF should not get IVF treatment. Other people were given an amazing IVF treatment by their God to allow them to have a family and it does nto concern you in any way.

I have one vote just like you do. My vote is determined by my conscience formed by the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I am catholic and I have a children conceived by IVF. God told me to do it and was right.

NP
You chose to go against the teachings of the church. You have the right to make that choice, but that choice makes you NOT a practicing Catholic.

I turn down the greatest gift god has given me and THAT makes me a Catholic. I don't think so.

If you believe god has given you that gift, that is your option. Others believe in science.

I believe in science. My argument is that for every religious person telling me that IVF is forbidden by this or that church there is a flip argument that IVF is encouraged by this or that church.

In my opinion reproductive decisions are private and personal. No one has to treat infertility with IVF but no one should be denied that treatment if they believe that it is the right decision for their situation.

Yet here we are with churches writing laws for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish I could post this in the thread about Rob Reiner’s documentary on Christian Nationalism but it got locked. This is language in a real court ruling in America.

The Catholic Church strongly opposes IVF.

The Catholic Church? I lost all respect for the CC during the HIV/AIDS epidemic when they opposed condom use (because they oppose contraception except for the rhythm method) and promoted "chastity." Never mind, how they protected pedophile priests...

The twin cruelties of denying birth control and their child raping road show is why I despise the Catholic Church, add to that their worsening the HIV/AIDS crisis and their political action and they’re even worse.

I guess denying IVF is why they need to have more White babies for the pipeline or whatever the Handmaiden said.

The Church’s teaching on the immorality of IVF is based upon God ordained natural law. Chastity outside of marriage between a man and a woman has always been part of the Catechism. The Catholic Church is furthermore growing fastest in Subsaharan Africa so it has nothing to do with white babies (the Church is shrinking fastest in Western Europe and North America. The next Pope may very well be a black African.
Oh, and there’s a very special place in Hell for child raping priests.

Folks that do not believe in IVF should not get IVF treatment. Other people were given an amazing IVF treatment by their God to allow them to have a family and it does nto concern you in any way.

I have one vote just like you do. My vote is determined by my conscience formed by the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I am catholic and I have a children conceived by IVF. God told me to do it and was right.

NP
You chose to go against the teachings of the church. You have the right to make that choice, but that choice makes you NOT a practicing Catholic.

I turn down the greatest gift god has given me and THAT makes me a Catholic. I don't think so.

If you believe god has given you that gift, that is your option. Others believe in science.

I believe in science. My argument is that for every religious person telling me that IVF is forbidden by this or that church there is a flip argument that IVF is encouraged by this or that church.

In my opinion reproductive decisions are private and personal. No one has to treat infertility with IVF but no one should be denied that treatment if they believe that it is the right decision for their situation.

"This chruch or that church" perhaps, but NOT the Catholic church.

We need to agree to disagree. I would urge people to get infertility treated if they can. And vote to ensure important medical treatments are not outlawed in Alabama or anywhere else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The facts of the original case are beyond bizarre and seem like some bad movie. A “patient” at a fertility clinic “eloped” and broke into the room that stored frozen embryos, broke into the storage and grabbed several frozen embryos (in their containers) with their bare hands. Since that was basically a serious freezer, the eloper’s hands were severely burned immediately from the freezing metal and so the eloper dropped all of the embryos he/she was carrying and them broke onto the floor. When the breach was discovered the frozen embryos essentially had died.

So this was a joint lawsuit from 3 of the affected families who lost embryos for “unlawful death”.

It seems more like destruction of property rather than 'unlawful death' would have been the proper route here, unless you have a the zealous of a religious fanatic.

[Anonymous]

As Christianity fades in popularity with the young look for an active minority of Christian Nationalists, and frankly, zealots, to try and grasp for power like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish I could post this in the thread about Rob Reiner’s documentary on Christian Nationalism but it got locked. This is language in a real court ruling in America.

The Catholic Church strongly opposes IVF.

The Catholic Church? I lost all respect for the CC during the HIV/AIDS epidemic when they opposed condom use (because they oppose contraception except for the rhythm method) and promoted "chastity." Never mind, how they protected pedophile priests...

The twin cruelties of denying birth control and their child raping road show is why I despise the Catholic Church, add to that their worsening the HIV/AIDS crisis and their political action and they’re even worse.

I guess denying IVF is why they need to have more White babies for the pipeline or whatever the Handmaiden said.

The Church’s teaching on the immorality of IVF is based upon God ordained natural law. Chastity outside of marriage between a man and a woman has always been part of the Catechism. The Catholic Church is furthermore growing fastest in Subsaharan Africa so it has nothing to do with white babies (the Church is shrinking fastest in Western Europe and North America. The next Pope may very well be a black African.
Oh, and there’s a very special place in Hell for child raping priests.

Folks that do not believe in IVF should not get IVF treatment. Other people were given an amazing IVF treatment by their God to allow them to have a family and it does nto concern you in any way.

I have one vote just like you do. My vote is determined by my conscience formed by the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I am catholic and I have a children conceived by IVF. God told me to do it and was right.

NP
You chose to go against the teachings of the church. You have the right to make that choice, but that choice makes you NOT a practicing Catholic.

I turn down the greatest gift god has given me and THAT makes me a Catholic. I don't think so.

If you believe god has given you that gift, that is your option. Others believe in science.

I believe in science. My argument is that for every religious person telling me that IVF is forbidden by this or that church there is a flip argument that IVF is encouraged by this or that church.

In my opinion reproductive decisions are private and personal. No one has to treat infertility with IVF but no one should be denied that treatment if they believe that it is the right decision for their situation.

"This chruch or that church" perhaps, but NOT the Catholic church.

We need to agree to disagree. I would urge people to get infertility treated if they can. And vote to ensure important medical treatments are not outlawed in Alabama or anywhere else.

No. It is a fact, not an opinion, that the Catholic church does not encourage IVF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The facts of the original case are beyond bizarre and seem like some bad movie. A “patient” at a fertility clinic “eloped” and broke into the room that stored frozen embryos, broke into the storage and grabbed several frozen embryos (in their containers) with their bare hands. Since that was basically a serious freezer, the eloper’s hands were severely burned immediately from the freezing metal and so the eloper dropped all of the embryos he/she was carrying and them broke onto the floor. When the breach was discovered the frozen embryos essentially had died.

So this was a joint lawsuit from 3 of the affected families who lost embryos for “unlawful death”.

It seems more like destruction of property rather than 'unlawful death' would have been the proper route here, unless you have a the zealous of a religious fanatic.

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish I could post this in the thread about Rob Reiner’s documentary on Christian Nationalism but it got locked. This is language in a real court ruling in America.

The Catholic Church strongly opposes IVF.

The Catholic Church? I lost all respect for the CC during the HIV/AIDS epidemic when they opposed condom use (because they oppose contraception except for the rhythm method) and promoted "chastity." Never mind, how they protected pedophile priests...

The twin cruelties of denying birth control and their child raping road show is why I despise the Catholic Church, add to that their worsening the HIV/AIDS crisis and their political action and they’re even worse.

I guess denying IVF is why they need to have more White babies for the pipeline or whatever the Handmaiden said.

The Church’s teaching on the immorality of IVF is based upon God ordained natural law. Chastity outside of marriage between a man and a woman has always been part of the Catechism. The Catholic Church is furthermore growing fastest in Subsaharan Africa so it has nothing to do with white babies (the Church is shrinking fastest in Western Europe and North America. The next Pope may very well be a black African.
Oh, and there’s a very special place in Hell for child raping priests.

Folks that do not believe in IVF should not get IVF treatment. Other people were given an amazing IVF treatment by their God to allow them to have a family and it does nto concern you in any way.

I have one vote just like you do. My vote is determined by my conscience formed by the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I am catholic and I have a children conceived by IVF. God told me to do it and was right.

NP
You chose to go against the teachings of the church. You have the right to make that choice, but that choice makes you NOT a practicing Catholic.

I turn down the greatest gift god has given me and THAT makes me a Catholic. I don't think so.

If you believe god has given you that gift, that is your option. Others believe in science.

I believe in science. My argument is that for every religious person telling me that IVF is forbidden by this or that church there is a flip argument that IVF is encouraged by this or that church.

In my opinion reproductive decisions are private and personal. No one has to treat infertility with IVF but no one should be denied that treatment if they believe that it is the right decision for their situation.

"This chruch or that church" perhaps, but NOT the Catholic church.

We need to agree to disagree. I would urge people to get infertility treated if they can. And vote to ensure important medical treatments are not outlawed in Alabama or anywhere else.

In fact IVF is not outlawed in Alabama but calling frozen embryos people will have the same effect because clinics cannot operate in such an environment. This is abusively cruel and must be stopped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish I could post this in the thread about Rob Reiner’s documentary on Christian Nationalism but it got locked. This is language in a real court ruling in America.

The Catholic Church strongly opposes IVF.

The Catholic Church? I lost all respect for the CC during the HIV/AIDS epidemic when they opposed condom use (because they oppose contraception except for the rhythm method) and promoted "chastity." Never mind, how they protected pedophile priests...

The twin cruelties of denying birth control and their child raping road show is why I despise the Catholic Church, add to that their worsening the HIV/AIDS crisis and their political action and they’re even worse.

I guess denying IVF is why they need to have more White babies for the pipeline or whatever the Handmaiden said.

The Church’s teaching on the immorality of IVF is based upon God ordained natural law. Chastity outside of marriage between a man and a woman has always been part of the Catechism. The Catholic Church is furthermore growing fastest in Subsaharan Africa so it has nothing to do with white babies (the Church is shrinking fastest in Western Europe and North America. The next Pope may very well be a black African.
Oh, and there’s a very special place in Hell for child raping priests.

Folks that do not believe in IVF should not get IVF treatment. Other people were given an amazing IVF treatment by their God to allow them to have a family and it does nto concern you in any way.

I have one vote just like you do. My vote is determined by my conscience formed by the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I am catholic and I have a children conceived by IVF. God told me to do it and was right.

NP
You chose to go against the teachings of the church. You have the right to make that choice, but that choice makes you NOT a practicing Catholic.

I turn down the greatest gift god has given me and THAT makes me a Catholic. I don't think so.

If you believe god has given you that gift, that is your option. Others believe in science.

I believe in science. My argument is that for every religious person telling me that IVF is forbidden by this or that church there is a flip argument that IVF is encouraged by this or that church.

In my opinion reproductive decisions are private and personal. No one has to treat infertility with IVF but no one should be denied that treatment if they believe that it is the right decision for their situation.

"This chruch or that church" perhaps, but NOT the Catholic church.

We need to agree to disagree. I would urge people to get infertility treated if they can. And vote to ensure important medical treatments are not outlawed in Alabama or anywhere else.

No. It is a fact, not an opinion, that the Catholic church does not encourage IVF.

Are you infertile?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish I could post this in the thread about Rob Reiner’s documentary on Christian Nationalism but it got locked. This is language in a real court ruling in America.

The Catholic Church strongly opposes IVF.

The Catholic Church? I lost all respect for the CC during the HIV/AIDS epidemic when they opposed condom use (because they oppose contraception except for the rhythm method) and promoted "chastity." Never mind, how they protected pedophile priests...

The twin cruelties of denying birth control and their child raping road show is why I despise the Catholic Church, add to that their worsening the HIV/AIDS crisis and their political action and they’re even worse.

I guess denying IVF is why they need to have more White babies for the pipeline or whatever the Handmaiden said.

The Church’s teaching on the immorality of IVF is based upon God ordained natural law. Chastity outside of marriage between a man and a woman has always been part of the Catechism. The Catholic Church is furthermore growing fastest in Subsaharan Africa so it has nothing to do with white babies (the Church is shrinking fastest in Western Europe and North America. The next Pope may very well be a black African.
Oh, and there’s a very special place in Hell for child raping priests.

Folks that do not believe in IVF should not get IVF treatment. Other people were given an amazing IVF treatment by their God to allow them to have a family and it does nto concern you in any way.

I have one vote just like you do. My vote is determined by my conscience formed by the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I am catholic and I have a children conceived by IVF. God told me to do it and was right.

NP
You chose to go against the teachings of the church. You have the right to make that choice, but that choice makes you NOT a practicing Catholic.

I turn down the greatest gift god has given me and THAT makes me a Catholic. I don't think so.

If you believe god has given you that gift, that is your option. Others believe in science.

I believe in science. My argument is that for every religious person telling me that IVF is forbidden by this or that church there is a flip argument that IVF is encouraged by this or that church.

In my opinion reproductive decisions are private and personal. No one has to treat infertility with IVF but no one should be denied that treatment if they believe that it is the right decision for their situation.

"This chruch or that church" perhaps, but NOT the Catholic church.

We need to agree to disagree. I would urge people to get infertility treated if they can. And vote to ensure important medical treatments are not outlawed in Alabama or anywhere else.

No. It is a fact, not an opinion, that the Catholic church does not encourage IVF.

Contrast this with Jewish and Mormon congregations that actively encourage IVF usage as a matter of religious belief to reproduce.

This is an insane precedent in Alabama against its Jewish and Mormon citizens.

[Anonymous]

I can guarantee that many many Catholics find this teaching about IVF to be completely misguided and have conceived thousands and thousands of children via IVF. The Catholics baptize them and they sit in those pews if they choose and the earth spins on just fine. Do what you need to do folks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can guarantee that many many Catholics find this teaching about IVF to be completely misguided and have conceived thousands and thousands of children via IVF. The Catholics baptize them and they sit in those pews if they choose and the earth spins on just fine. Do what you need to do folks.

And they vote for Biden!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish I could post this in the thread about Rob Reiner’s documentary on Christian Nationalism but it got locked. This is language in a real court ruling in America.

The Catholic Church strongly opposes IVF.

The Catholic Church? I lost all respect for the CC during the HIV/AIDS epidemic when they opposed condom use (because they oppose contraception except for the rhythm method) and promoted "chastity." Never mind, how they protected pedophile priests...

The twin cruelties of denying birth control and their child raping road show is why I despise the Catholic Church, add to that their worsening the HIV/AIDS crisis and their political action and they’re even worse.

I guess denying IVF is why they need to have more White babies for the pipeline or whatever the Handmaiden said.

The Church’s teaching on the immorality of IVF is based upon God ordained natural law. Chastity outside of marriage between a man and a woman has always been part of the Catechism. The Catholic Church is furthermore growing fastest in Subsaharan Africa so it has nothing to do with white babies (the Church is shrinking fastest in Western Europe and North America. The next Pope may very well be a black African.
Oh, and there’s a very special place in Hell for child raping priests.

Folks that do not believe in IVF should not get IVF treatment. Other people were given an amazing IVF treatment by their God to allow them to have a family and it does nto concern you in any way.

I have one vote just like you do. My vote is determined by my conscience formed by the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I am catholic and I have a children conceived by IVF. God told me to do it and was right.

NP
You chose to go against the teachings of the church. You have the right to make that choice, but that choice makes you NOT a practicing Catholic.

I turn down the greatest gift god has given me and THAT makes me a Catholic. I don't think so.

If you believe god has given you that gift, that is your option. Others believe in science.

I believe in science. My argument is that for every religious person telling me that IVF is forbidden by this or that church there is a flip argument that IVF is encouraged by this or that church.

In my opinion reproductive decisions are private and personal. No one has to treat infertility with IVF but no one should be denied that treatment if they believe that it is the right decision for their situation.

"This chruch or that church" perhaps, but NOT the Catholic church.

We need to agree to disagree. I would urge people to get infertility treated if they can. And vote to ensure important medical treatments are not outlawed in Alabama or anywhere else.

No. It is a fact, not an opinion, that the Catholic church does not encourage IVF.

Contrast this with Jewish and Mormon congregations that actively encourage IVF usage as a matter of religious belief to reproduce.

This is an insane precedent in Alabama against its Jewish and Mormon citizens.

and any Christians or other rational people there who want to use IVF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The facts of the original case are beyond bizarre and seem like some bad movie. A “patient” at a fertility clinic “eloped” and broke into the room that stored frozen embryos, broke into the storage and grabbed several frozen embryos (in their containers) with their bare hands. Since that was basically a serious freezer, the eloper’s hands were severely burned immediately from the freezing metal and so the eloper dropped all of the embryos he/she was carrying and them broke onto the floor. When the breach was discovered the frozen embryos essentially had died.

So this was a joint lawsuit from 3 of the affected families who lost embryos for “unlawful death”.

It seems more like destruction of property rather than 'unlawful death' would have been the proper route here, unless you have a the zealous of a religious fanatic.

So being a nerdy lawyer I was very curious about this case. It seems to be very Alabama law specific and hinged on whether the term "unborn child" of Alabama's Wrongful Death of a Minor Act includes embryos kept outside a uterus or "extrauterine children" aka frozen embryos kept in a freezer. Alabama already defines embryos as children because they're ruled life begins at conception but now we are talking about frozen embryos not inside a woman's uterus.

In this crazy case, the fertility clinic had their storage facility located inside a hospital and someone some unauthorized crazy person was able to walk into the storage room, open the special cryogenic freezer, pick up several embryos out of that freezer and drop them all over the floor (because the severe cold burned their hands so as a reflex they dropped them). So the embryos died. The case doesn't go into more of those facts like why were the door and freezer unlocked, who was this nut job, why did they do it, etc.

The families want to collect punitive damages under the Alabama Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, which is why they argued the embryos were children and not property. Hospital and Fertility Clinic argued that there an exception to this act because these embryos were not inside a uterus, but plaintiffs argued that would violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment (I think this point is key). I wouldn't be surprised to see that argued in the future. The court stated it didn't keep to decide that part because "unborn children are children under the Act, without exception based on developmental stage, physical location, or any other ancillary characteristics;" and because of that simple ruling it won't decide any of the other parts, case over.

Here is a link to the decision. https://publicportal-api.alappeals.gov/courts/68f021c4-6a44-4735-9a76-5360b2e8af13/cms/case/c93db586-ec08-4f14-a6ba-a149967e68b0/docketentrydocuments/bb88f2bf-19ca-498f-9fe2-f754d36c0ff2