Struggling in Hon Precalculus

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many students go from an A in Alg. 2 to doing poorly in Pre-cal and also in the transition from Geometry to Alg. 2.

Your child sounds like he's talented in math probably used to being able to do all the work until now without working too hard. I was just speaking with a colleague who has a Ph.D. in MATH and he was telling me how hard it was for him in high school when he moved to Alg. 2/Precal for this reason. He's a young guy, probably in his 30s. Everything had been easy so he did not learn how to work his way through more complex problems. He got bad grades that year but he became a stronger math student by working through it. He's now in a job where he uses math every day.

Side note to OP: I think he's great your son already knows he wanst to be a physicist!

Advice from someone with a PhD in Physics (MIT), not someone who knows someone with a PhD in math.

For a career in Physics you need a strong math foundation, no way around it.

OP needs to figure out why the D is happening, and if her son can turn it around. I get that repeating Algebra 2 is going through the same material, but if he didn’t master it despite an A, what’s the alternative? The kid needs to take a diagnostic test, try Khan Academy full course test, not just browsing through a few questions, he should do at least 90% without breaking a sweat. He could also try the AOPS, ‘Do you need it?’, and ‘Are you ready’ tests, again, he should show mastery. If he doesn't, he’ll need to catch up while not being able to afford a B.

The parent can hire a tutor for precalculus, but given how advanced the student is, she’ll need to find tutors for Calculus BC, Multivariable, Differential Equations and Linear algebra. Not ideal, the kid needs to buckle down and figure it out in his own or look into another major he can handle independently.

Given his intended major, he will also take AP Physics C, two of the hardest AP classes, the difficulty will only go up from here.

I see how the OP might want to keep the +3 year acceleration in math so I’ll add another possible option. Drop from Honors Precalculus and enroll in AP Statistics. In many high schools AP Stat is easier, and it doesn’t require knowledge beyond algebra 2. The student would still need to make sure he’ll absolutely be ready for honors precalculus, but he’ll have one full year to prepare. He has to shoot for a 5 in the AP exam and that’s no small feat for a 9th grader, might be even harder than A in honors precalculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

It’s great the kid is ambitious and aims high. But he can also bite more than he can chew and overestimate his capabilities. Make sure he’s ready, and aim for getting A while maintaining the most rigorous schedule possible. Hire a tutor, but make sure the workload is over his head and end up not being able to keep up. How is he doing compared to other kids in class? D is quite low, are other students getting over 90%? If yes, accept this is an alarming sign.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

How do you know?
It's ridiculous assume that someone getting a D in September can handle it and just needs a bit more support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP back. He is in 9th. 8th grade MapM was 282. I am honestly in a new territory here because I have never had to worry about anything school related. We have always been very hands off with school with all of our kids. Older sibling took regular precalculus in 10th but in a different district. Never had any tutors for math or any of the AP courses. Older sibling is in an engineering program at UMD. This DS, middle child, also wants to be a physicist. He is worried that moving down to regular precalculus will be counted against him during college admissions. He wanted to take Calculus AB in 10th, BC in 11th and AP stats in 12th. He took Algebra 1 in 6th during COVID years but did AoPS Algebra 1 concurrently, so if he has gaps they have to be from Algebra 2. I will try to persuade him to take regular precalculus.

NP here. Honors Precalculus is where students first start to encounter a lot of abstract thinking in math. Also, ages 12-15 is a big shift in adolescent brain development where they shift from very concrete, literal thinking to more abstract reasoning. Your son may simply have outpaced his brain’s development. Assure him that a slowdown right now doesn’t mean he can’t still be on the long term path he’s aiming for.

My suggestion is to take regular Precalc right now, and then Honors Precalc in the summer. And then continue with AB Calculus next fall.

What abstract thinking is in Precalculus but not Algebra or Geometry?

Here’s a good description of the thinking in HPrecalc
https://saratogafalcon.org/content/precalculus-honors-classes-should-not-transform-curriculum-to-conform-to-ap-precalculus/

I've read that article in the past. It's a good criticism of AP Precalc, but doesn't answer the question I asked.
Honors Algebra 1/2 and Honors Geometry are also harder and more abstract than the non-honors curses on the path to AP Precalc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many students go from an A in Alg. 2 to doing poorly in Pre-cal and also in the transition from Geometry to Alg. 2.

Your child sounds like he's talented in math probably used to being able to do all the work until now without working too hard. I was just speaking with a colleague who has a Ph.D. in MATH and he was telling me how hard it was for him in high school when he moved to Alg. 2/Precal for this reason. He's a young guy, probably in his 30s. Everything had been easy so he did not learn how to work his way through more complex problems. He got bad grades that year but he became a stronger math student by working through it. He's now in a job where he uses math every day.

Side note to OP: I think he's great your son already knows he wanst to be a physicist!

Advice from someone with a PhD in Physics (MIT), not someone who knows someone with a PhD in math.

For a career in Physics you need a strong math foundation, no way around it.

OP needs to figure out why the D is happening, and if her son can turn it around. I get that repeating Algebra 2 is going through the same material, but if he didn’t master it despite an A, what’s the alternative? The kid needs to take a diagnostic test, try Khan Academy full course test, not just browsing through a few questions, he should do at least 90% without breaking a sweat. He could also try the AOPS, ‘Do you need it?’, and ‘Are you ready’ tests, again, he should show mastery. If he doesn't, he’ll need to catch up while not being able to afford a B.

The parent can hire a tutor for precalculus, but given how advanced the student is, she’ll need to find tutors for Calculus BC, Multivariable, Differential Equations and Linear algebra. Not ideal, the kid needs to buckle down and figure it out in his own or look into another major he can handle independently.

Given his intended major, he will also take AP Physics C, two of the hardest AP classes, the difficulty will only go up from here.

OP, listen to the above. You need to diagnose the specific problem, because something tells me a D was not just a fluke. Unfortunately, it's not easy without knowing some math yourself. You could potentially hire a tutor to do the diagnosis but most may not have enough knowledge to tell where the holes are. If you want crowdsourcing , you can post specific math examples here and we will help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

To each their own but I've had one kid go through MCPS and another still in HS. You are potentially setting your kid up for issues down the road. I don't generally help my kids in HS because I want them to be on a track that is appropriate for their strengths and not in ending up in college struggling.

As for acceleration, IMO schools are allowing too many kids these tracks now without advising parents of further downstream problems. Taking Pre-Calc in 9th grade should be exceedingly rare. Also, more than half the grade should not be on a track to take Calc in 11th grade. It's nice what they do at Blair and Poolesville where they adjust the kids math tracks based on testing once they arrive in 9th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

How do you know?
It's ridiculous assume that someone getting a D in September can handle it and just needs a bit more support.

Why not try giving the child more support vs. holding them back. Holding them back isn't going to help, even if they wait a year, they will still need support. Precal is a huge leap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

To each their own but I've had one kid go through MCPS and another still in HS. You are potentially setting your kid up for issues down the road. I don't generally help my kids in HS because I want them to be on a track that is appropriate for their strengths and not in ending up in college struggling.

As for acceleration, IMO schools are allowing too many kids these tracks now without advising parents of further downstream problems. Taking Pre-Calc in 9th grade should be exceedingly rare. Also, more than half the grade should not be on a track to take Calc in 11th grade. It's nice what they do at Blair and Poolesville where they adjust the kids math tracks based on testing once they arrive in 9th grade.

No one is asking your opinion. Blair and Poolesville only let in 100 kids each so what do the rest of the smart kids do? And, if they were already on this track they wouldn't make a child repeat a class. Maybe your ego is an issue. You can always slow down later on in Calc. Not a big deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

How do you know?
It's ridiculous assume that someone getting a D in September can handle it and just needs a bit more support.

Why not try giving the child more support vs. holding them back. Holding them back isn't going to help, even if they wait a year, they will still need support. Precal is a huge leap.

Algebra 2 to precalculus is not a huge leap. Literally hundreds of thousands transition successfully every year.

There’s support and there’s pushing him through when he’s not ready with the risk of backfiring. Don’t let your ego decide what class your child should take. Think only of what’s best for him in the long run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

To each their own but I've had one kid go through MCPS and another still in HS. You are potentially setting your kid up for issues down the road. I don't generally help my kids in HS because I want them to be on a track that is appropriate for their strengths and not in ending up in college struggling.

As for acceleration, IMO schools are allowing too many kids these tracks now without advising parents of further downstream problems. Taking Pre-Calc in 9th grade should be exceedingly rare. Also, more than half the grade should not be on a track to take Calc in 11th grade. It's nice what they do at Blair and Poolesville where they adjust the kids math tracks based on testing once they arrive in 9th grade.

No one is asking your opinion. Blair and Poolesville only let in 100 kids each so what do the rest of the smart kids do? And, if they were already on this track they wouldn't make a child repeat a class. Maybe your ego is an issue. You can always slow down later on in Calc. Not a big deal.

Actually at Blair and Poolesville they put the kid that already took Alg2 and the ones that did not but test high in the same class. Well aware of the space issues and it's a shame this kind of setup is not offered elsewhere.

There is actually no slow down other than going to Calc AB which then what was the point of getting so far ahead? IMO better for kids to get a solid math foundation early. Just offering an opinion as someone in STEM myself and an MCPS parent. Chill out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

How do you know?
It's ridiculous assume that someone getting a D in September can handle it and just needs a bit more support.

Why not try giving the child more support vs. holding them back. Holding them back isn't going to help, even if they wait a year, they will still need support. Precal is a huge leap.

Algebra 2 to precalculus is not a huge leap. Literally hundreds of thousands transition successfully every year.

There’s support and there’s pushing him through when he’s not ready with the risk of backfiring. Don’t let your ego decide what class your child should take. Think only of what’s best for him in the long run.

It is a very big leak and giving support is the right answer. Sorry you aren't enjoying parenting and want to support your kids. I am thinking of what's best for my child and this is the right class. We will do anything to support our child and I hope OP doesn't take your advice and gets their child support. Lazy parents hold their kids back grade wise and academics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

To each their own but I've had one kid go through MCPS and another still in HS. You are potentially setting your kid up for issues down the road. I don't generally help my kids in HS because I want them to be on a track that is appropriate for their strengths and not in ending up in college struggling.

As for acceleration, IMO schools are allowing too many kids these tracks now without advising parents of further downstream problems. Taking Pre-Calc in 9th grade should be exceedingly rare. Also, more than half the grade should not be on a track to take Calc in 11th grade. It's nice what they do at Blair and Poolesville where they adjust the kids math tracks based on testing once they arrive in 9th grade.

No one is asking your opinion. Blair and Poolesville only let in 100 kids each so what do the rest of the smart kids do? And, if they were already on this track they wouldn't make a child repeat a class. Maybe your ego is an issue. You can always slow down later on in Calc. Not a big deal.

Actually at Blair and Poolesville they put the kid that already took Alg2 and the ones that did not but test high in the same class. Well aware of the space issues and it's a shame this kind of setup is not offered elsewhere.

There is actually no slow down other than going to Calc AB which then what was the point of getting so far ahead? IMO better for kids to get a solid math foundation early. Just offering an opinion as someone in STEM myself and an MCPS parent. Chill out.

There is slowing down. Many DCUM parents are in STEM so saying you are in STEM means nothing. The point of going to Calc AB is to meet their needs but if they were ready and doing well in Algebra in 6th or 7th, why would you stop it? The issue is how Algebra and Geometry are being taught and not all teachers are strong teachers, especially in higher level math. It's very hard to learn without textbooks or adequate practice with homework and classwork as well as teachers reviewing assignments. We used the free tutoring the past few years. If it was free, why wouldn't you. I really wish they'd bring it back for kids like OP who need a bit more support.

Personally I don't care about Blair or Poolesville as we couldn't make it work with our after school schedule and we didn't like the curriculum as it didn't have the right focus for our child. I don't get the big deal about going to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP this is spot on. Why it’s such a shame that parents push their kids on this super advanced track without thinking ahead. Unfortunately many parents overestimate their kid, maybe because they don’t understand how there are kids out there that can truly handle this work, sometimes with no teaching and certainly no help.

My kid choose this track. We didn't push and tried to discourage it. They just need a bit of support from a parent or tutor. What is the big deal? Just because you will not help your kids in any way but clearly have the time, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. This kid can handle it. They just need a bit more support.

To each their own but I've had one kid go through MCPS and another still in HS. You are potentially setting your kid up for issues down the road. I don't generally help my kids in HS because I want them to be on a track that is appropriate for their strengths and not in ending up in college struggling.

As for acceleration, IMO schools are allowing too many kids these tracks now without advising parents of further downstream problems. Taking Pre-Calc in 9th grade should be exceedingly rare. Also, more than half the grade should not be on a track to take Calc in 11th grade. It's nice what they do at Blair and Poolesville where they adjust the kids math tracks based on testing once they arrive in 9th grade.

No one is asking your opinion. Blair and Poolesville only let in 100 kids each so what do the rest of the smart kids do? And, if they were already on this track they wouldn't make a child repeat a class. Maybe your ego is an issue. You can always slow down later on in Calc. Not a big deal.

Actually at Blair and Poolesville they put the kid that already took Alg2 and the ones that did not but test high in the same class. Well aware of the space issues and it's a shame this kind of setup is not offered elsewhere.

There is actually no slow down other than going to Calc AB which then what was the point of getting so far ahead? IMO better for kids to get a solid math foundation early. Just offering an opinion as someone in STEM myself and an MCPS parent. Chill out.

There is slowing down. Many DCUM parents are in STEM so saying you are in STEM means nothing. The point of going to Calc AB is to meet their needs but if they were ready and doing well in Algebra in 6th or 7th, why would you stop it? The issue is how Algebra and Geometry are being taught and not all teachers are strong teachers, especially in higher level math. It's very hard to learn without textbooks or adequate practice with homework and classwork as well as teachers reviewing assignments. We used the free tutoring the past few years. If it was free, why wouldn't you. I really wish they'd bring it back for kids like OP who need a bit more support.

Personally I don't care about Blair or Poolesville as we couldn't make it work with our after school schedule and we didn't like the curriculum as it didn't have the right focus for our child. I don't get the big deal about going to them.

You sound like you’re the OP, pretending not to be the OP. Also you seem to have made up your mind, which is fine considering it’s your child and you know him better.

I think you got reasonable advice from disinterested people with the right background, not jealous parents hating on your kid’s accomplishments. You should at least consider that point of view.

Precalculus, Calculus AB, Calculus BC, AP statistics sequence is probably the worst choice even if getting all A’s which is quite doubtful at this point, tutoring included.

You could do Algebra 2, H Precalculus, Calculus BC, Statistics and still end at the same point but he’ll have a better foundation.

If still possible, I’d have him do AP statistics, H Precalculus, Calculus BC, and Multivariable which has no ‘slow down’.

If you want to assess how appropriate H Precalculus is, have him take these tests and get back to us.

Khan Academy Algebra 2 course challenge.

AOPS, Precalculus, Are you ready:
https://data.artofproblemsolving.com/course-docs/diagnostics/precalc-pretest.pdf

AOPS, Algebra 2, Do you need it? This will certainly be difficult.
https://data.artofproblemsolving.com/course-docs/diagnostics/intermediate-algebra-posttest.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, Some of these posters are jealous nuts.

Of course you already know dropping down to Alg. 2. Honors would be a waste of time for a kid who already got an A in MCPS and I'm not sure your school would allow it anyway. Unless you came from a different district, your child almost definitely took the class at a high school, maybe the same high school, so the content and even possibly the teacher is going to be the same.

DCUM loves to take down kids who do better than theirs so it's no surprise they are trying to give bad advice.

Jealous of a kid getting a D in honors precalc? No. We are concerned that OP's child missed some of the basic skills as a result of over-acceleration.

[Anonymous]

Give me a break. It's so obvious with your multiple posts upon posts that you want to take OP down a notch.

Just stop please and find something better to do with your time.

You keep mentioning over-acceleration and hyper acceleration but that's irrelevant.

My child is in the regular math track due to having come from private school, got all As in math previous to Precal and then started struggling. Many of their classmates in MCPS who took Alg. 2 in MCPS are having the same issue.