Taking classes for high school credit in middle school

[Anonymous]

Do not be surprised if he gets a math placement exam during the first week of school. Many returning students are encouraged to complete a summer math package handed out at the end of the school year in anticipation of the anticipated math placement in the following academic year. These are located on the MCPS high school websites.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

WTH is with this robotic summary of facts? We know what the policy is. The question is, is it a reasonable policy? Is it a good policy, developmentally appropriate? What is it about foreign language classes that makes them "high school" classes whereas other MS electives (e.g. band, home ec) are not?

These are the questions. We all KNOW what the policy is.

Yes, it's a reasonable policy in the absence of other alternatives. [b]If MCPS elementary and middle school students were allowed to take high school courses (according to the current definitions and classifications) that did not count on their high school transcripts then these courses would be flooded by elementary and middle school students essentially auditing these higher level "high school" courses. I'm not quite sure the present system could handle the demand. [b]Of course, the public could vote to pump more dollars into the public school system to make this work then public school elementary and middle school students could take languages and higher level maths and science without "penalty" of the grade showing up on their high school transcripts and affecting their graqde point averages.

Some private high school institutions simply have a pass/fail policy and/or no grades (but descriptive summary of a students performance)for those with tight anal sphincters.

But this begs the question of, why do foreign-language courses have to be "high-school level" courses? Why can't middle schoolers take them as electives, as they do now, without them being "high school level" classes?

I don't see how this would require "pumping more money" into the existing system because all of these kids take electives anyway. They are either in Spanish, French, Home Ec, Band, or some other elective. How would changing this to reflect French I, Spanish I, etc. as regular old middle school classes "open floodgates"? The students wouldn't be "auditing" anything; they would be taking these electives as they would any other elective (or core class), for a middle school grade.

I don't understand your reference to "tight anal sphincters." Could you explain please?

[Anonymous]

The 4 year path we looked at was Alg 2 honors, Honors Geo, Pre Calc and AP Calc. This is behind where some of his public school buddies are because they took Geo in middle school. But I don't feel strongly that he needs to take more than AP Calc in HS. This is where I don't really get the math acceleration in MCPS. Seems like the main thing the more advanced kids take is AP Stat and if he really wants to take that he could take it in the summer or double up since Stat is pretty much a stand alone class.

Math acceleration is not for everyone and I get it. It's nice to have the option if you desire it. Imagine if those kids that are passionate about math, science and math competitions in middle and high school school and hunger for early advanced math courses had no way to advance but to hang out with the herd. I think to provide them the option for advancement is a bonus in any system. Some kids love physics and quantum mechanics and need Calculus before they can take AP physics. It's nice to have a pathway that does not require going to summer or weekend school to make things happen. Similar to the talented lacrosse player, pianist or violinist. Why hold them back if they wish acceleration, enrichment and depth and rise to the challenge. Clearly not a prescription for all lacrosse players, musicians, and artists. We nurture talent in athletics, music and arts. What's so draconian about nurturing intellectual and academic talent in mathematics, science and languages? At the very least, it's nice to have an educational system that provides the option and pathway for those interested and capable students to choose. However, I agree, it's not for everyone and you're rightly entitled to feel he doesn't need to take more than AP calculus in high school. Others may have other academic inclinations and passions.

Getting back to the gist of the original thread, some do not wish grades earned in some of these MCPS courses to appear on their child's high school transcript if their children are not in high school; for others this does not seem to present a problem.

Perhaps to satisfy everyone we should simply do away with high school grades; after all I'm quite certain that it is not grades that drive teachers, students and their parents in MCPS, but the love and thirst for knowledge and expertise.

[Anonymous]

But this begs the question of, why do foreign-language courses have to be "high-school level" courses? Why can't middle schoolers take them as electives, as they do now, without them being "high school level" classes?

I don't see how this would require "pumping more money" into the existing system because all of these kids take electives anyway. They are either in Spanish, French, Home Ec, Band, or some other elective. How would changing this to reflect French I, Spanish I, etc. as regular old middle school classes "open floodgates"? The students wouldn't be "auditing" anything; they would be taking these electives as they would any other elective (or core class), for a middle school grade.

I don't understand your reference to "tight anal sphincters." Could you explain please?

If middle students are already taking electives in Spanish, French, Home Economics and Band then what is the problem...Spanish and French are already available for these students to select? Do you wish an expansion of foreign language electives to include Arabic, Mandarin, Italian and German? What is the difference between the electives these students are currently taking in French and Spanish and French 1 and Spanish 1? Are there material differences in the breadth and depth, frequency and instructor certification? If so, there's where increased costs begin to creep into the equation. The teaching requirements and syllabus are not equivalent to French 1 and Spanish 1. Why should a watered down version of French 1 and Spanish 1 in middle school be assigned the same weight as a high school course so these kids can start French 4 or Spanish 4 in 9th grade assuming they took the Spanish or French elective for 3 years in middle school for no grade? If MCPS allowed middle students to do this the floodgates would certainly open ... at least in my neighborhood.
The difference for Algebra 1 and Honors Geometry offered in middle school is that these courses cover the identical high school course by appropriately certified instructors at the high school level. The frequency, syllabus and depth of subject matter is ostensibly the same as the high school version. I doubt the elective French and Spanish courses in middle school adhere to the same French 1 or Spanish 1 high school standards. If they did current MCPS policy states the grade will show up on the high school transcript. If the grade is expunged from the high school transcript then all grades in high school courses taken by elementary and middle school students should also be expunged from the high school record. Let me ask you this question? What do you predict would happen in MCPS if elementary and middle school students could audit high school courses without the grade appearing on the high school transcript? What would happen if the MCPS middle school curriculum expanded to include high school level courses that students could audit as electives without grades appearing on their high school transcripts? Do you believe this could occur without a cost? A suite of elective courses cost $$$. And some schools have eliminated French because there are no takers.

The reference to tight anal sphincters refers to uptight grade grubbers bemoaning a B grade a 10 year-old receives taking a high school course appearing on the high school transcript. Similar to a colleague of mine crying over a B their high school 15-year-old got in a university biochemistry course he elected to take for credit and wondering whether Harvard Medical School would bypass him.

[Anonymous]

OP, I spoke with a friend with a child in MCPS high school. As she explained it, kids need 2 years of foreign language classes in order to graduate form high school. They can get those courses done in 6th grade, 7th grade etc if they want. But then, those courses and their grads count as part of the high school transcript, (in order to count toward graduation).

According to her, if your child takes the classes in 6th and 7th grade, an you don't like the grades, or feel they didn't learn the material, etc. you DO have the option of just dropping the classes from the high school transcript, but your child WILL have to take 2 credits of foreign language at some point in his or her high school career -- either that same language again or a completely different language. At the point where the courses are being used to count towrads the 2 year's credit, that's the point where the grade also will count.

I don't know if she had it correct but it sounded sensible to me. When I was in high school we needed 2 years of foreign language credit but nothing we took befre high school counted. So no languages were even offered before high school.

[Anonymous]

OP, I spoke with a friend with a child in MCPS high school. As she explained it, kids need 2 years of foreign language classes in order to graduate form high school. They can get those courses done in 6th grade, 7th grade etc if they want. But then, those courses and their grads count as part of the high school transcript, (in order to count toward graduation).

According to her, if your child takes the classes in 6th and 7th grade, an you don't like the grades, or feel they didn't learn the material, etc. you DO have the option of just dropping the classes from the high school transcript, but your child WILL have to take 2 credits of foreign language at some point in his or her high school career -- either that same language again or a completely different language. At the point where the courses are being used to count towrads the 2 year's credit, that's the point where the grade also will count.

I don't know if she had it correct but it sounded sensible to me. When I was in high school we needed 2 years of foreign language credit but nothing we took befre high school counted. So no languages were even offered before high school.

I would have to agree. Quite reasonable. Based on discussions with my child's elmentary school principal taking Algebra 1 before high school also requires a grade that goes on the high school transcript since this a requirement to graduate from high school in MC. He did not address whether the child would have the option of removing it from the high school transcript if the child was not satisfied with the grade. But, theoretically if that happens, the child will have to repeat Algebra 1 to graduate from high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The 4 year path we looked at was Alg 2 honors, Honors Geo, Pre Calc and AP Calc. This is behind where some of his public school buddies are because they took Geo in middle school. But I don't feel strongly that he needs to take more than AP Calc in HS. This is where I don't really get the math acceleration in MCPS. Seems like the main thing the more advanced kids take is AP Stat and if he really wants to take that he could take it in the summer or double up since Stat is pretty much a stand alone class.

Math acceleration is not for everyone and I get it. It's nice to have the option if you desire it. Imagine if those kids that are passionate about math, science and math competitions in middle and high school school and hunger for early advanced math courses had no way to advance but to hang out with the herd. I think to provide them the option for advancement is a bonus in any system. Some kids love physics and quantum mechanics and need Calculus before they can take AP physics. It's nice to have a pathway that does not require going to summer or weekend school to make things happen. Similar to the talented lacrosse player, pianist or violinist. Why hold them back if they wish acceleration, enrichment and depth and rise to the challenge. Clearly not a prescription for all lacrosse players, musicians, and artists. We nurture talent in athletics, music and arts. What's so draconian about nurturing intellectual and academic talent in mathematics, science and languages? At the very least, it's nice to have an educational system that provides the option and pathway for those interested and capable students to choose. However, I agree, it's not for everyone and you're rightly entitled to feel he doesn't need to take more than AP calculus in high school. Others may have other academic inclinations and passions.

Getting back to the gist of the original thread, some do not wish grades earned in some of these MCPS courses to appear on their child's high school transcript if their children are not in high school; for others this does not seem to present a problem.

Perhaps to satisfy everyone we should simply do away with high school grades; after all I'm quite certain that it is not grades that drive teachers, students and their parents in MCPS, but the love and thirst for knowledge and expertise.

Agree that math acceleration is a great option for kids who are really so inclined. But what actually happens is that many kids are being pushed into it without really grasping the material and then fall behind later or require extensive tutoring because they aren't getting the concepts in class.

[Anonymous]

I would have to agree. Quite reasonable. Based on discussions with my child's elmentary school principal taking Algebra 1 before high school also requires a grade that goes on the high school transcript since this a requirement to graduate from high school in MC. He did not address whether the child would have the option of removing it from the high school transcript if the child was not satisfied with the grade. But, theoretically if that happens, the child will have to repeat Algebra 1 to graduate from high school.

Imagine the slippery slope for MCPS if elementary and middle school students taking and retaking high school courses before high school could pick and choose the grades they wish to have on their high school transcripts. The same slippery slope we have with some elementary and middle school students taking SATs and ACTs yearly (scores expunged) until they get the scores they like for college applications.

[Anonymous]

Tight anal shincters looking for ways to game the system.

[Anonymous]

Agree that math acceleration is a great option for kids who are really so inclined. But what actually happens is that many kids are being pushed into it without really grasping the material and then fall behind later or require extensive tutoring because they aren't getting the concepts in class.

Therefore, one should not allow students to accelerate in math? That does not seem to solve the root problem. If you think students are being pushed into this situation by the school, their parents or their ambition and drive the solution is not to eliminate the option and throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Anonymous]

20:57 I agree with your comments. In addition, I presume that the percentage of students that are just dying to take classes beyond AP Calculus just for the sheer love of it is small indeed. It has everything to do with the students and parents trying to look good for college admissions. IMHO

[Anonymous]

Bingo. So if you want to game the system to look good for college and you think you can really handle advanced level high school work as an elementary and middle school student better get some skin in the game. I am all for transparency. One's grade should stay on the transcript. The real McCoys (advanced elementary and middle school students) have no trouble keeping up with the older competition in high school.

[Anonymous]

Agree that math acceleration is a great option for kids who are really so inclined. But what actually happens is that many kids are being pushed into it without really grasping the material and then fall behind later or require extensive tutoring because they aren't getting the concepts in class.

I witnessed the same phenomenon at my children's year round swim club. The solution to hard driving coaches and parents is not getting rid of swimming pools or proclaiming swimming is bad for your health.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Agree that math acceleration is a great option for kids who are really so inclined. But what actually happens is that many kids are being pushed into it without really grasping the material and then fall behind later or require extensive tutoring because they aren't getting the concepts in class.

Therefore, one should not allow students to accelerate in math? That does not seem to solve the root problem. If you think students are being pushed into this situation by the school, their parents or their ambition and drive the solution is not to eliminate the option and throw the baby out with the bath water.

I dont think I even remotely suggested not allowing students to accerate. But it seems like way too many are accelerating and aren't capable of handling it. As a result apparently the classes in middle school are being 'dumbed" down thus allowing the students to get decent grades on their HS transcripts but not really covering the material adequately. From what I've heard from a couple of private high schools on tours etc. many kids coming in from MCPS who took Alg 1 in 7th or 8th end up having to retake Alg 1 in 9th grade because they can't pass the placement tests.

[Anonymous]

Agree that math acceleration is a great option for kids who are really so inclined. But what actually happens is that many kids are being pushed into it without really grasping the material and then fall behind later or require extensive tutoring because they aren't getting the concepts in class.

This happens with elementary and middle school students taking many high school courses. The behaviour you describe is encouraged and fueled when parents and their children can take these courses early with the option of grades removed from their high school transcripts. If the grades remained on the high school transcript it would cure this disease miraculously since grade grubbing MCPS parents would not push their children into these courses knowing that C, D and Fs will "stain" thier high school transcript. This is not punishment. If a kid can't hack it at that higher level he or she is simply a drag and/or burden on the teacher and other classmates and should wait until later to take on the challenge. Only the real deals will move forward. Of course, there are many other options for youngsters getting advanced and challenging material (home, tutors, online courses, school clubs, outside organizations, summer camps and schools to name a few)