I believe that admission to elite schools were much more meritocratic 20 years ago versus today

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure the factors you list create more meritocracy but the overall level of achievement is markedly higher today than back then. Whatever grade inflation and SAT scoring you want to cite, students are taking more advanced courses sooner than ever before. They’re just smarter than we ever were.


You are conflating smarter with higher achieving.


This^^^

Not sure it's always better to be taking 10+ AP courses in HS.

I was tops in my class, 1400 SAT/4.0 UW in the 80s. I took 2 AP courses as that is all my HS offered (English in 12th and APUSH). There were not AP science courses available. 400+ in my graduating class and only 13 of us made it to Calculus in HS (12th grade)--not AP calc. Yet somehow we all went on to be successful adults, but with way less stress and mental health issues. I suspect that's partly due to us being allowed to be HSers, not college students at age 15.
I attended a T10 university and graduated with a 3.9 GPA with a double major that required me to take overload almost every semester in my 5 years in 2 difficult majors/time consuming majors.


So despite higher achievement, which is the only tangible evidence you have , you’re comfortable calling them dumber. Ok.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure the factors you list create more meritocracy but the overall level of achievement is markedly higher today than back then. Whatever grade inflation and SAT scoring you want to cite, students are taking more advanced courses sooner than ever before. They’re just smarter than we ever were.


College professor here. I disagree completely. I can tell you that students’ performance in recent years has plummeted and that the overall quality is far lower than in the time period to which OP referred. Grade inflation and test score inflation mask what is really going on. The quality of education in this country has declined significantly.


Fellow prof +1000.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure the factors you list create more meritocracy but the overall level of achievement is markedly higher today than back then. Whatever grade inflation and SAT scoring you want to cite, students are taking more advanced courses sooner than ever before. They’re just smarter than we ever were.


College professor here. I disagree completely. I can tell you that students’ performance in recent years has plummeted and that the overall quality is far lower than in the time period to which OP referred. Grade inflation and test score inflation mask what is really going on. The quality of education in this country has declined significantly.


test score inflation? can you explain please? in the ACT and SAT? and AP exams?


The SAT (to give just one example) has been re-scaled multiple times. What would have produced a score of X in the 1990s now produces a score of X + Y, with Y being a not small number. If you Google re-scaling you should find out more.

AP exam content and standards get rewritten every few years. You can look back at past curriculum guides to see how things have changed.
Anonymous
Usually? Seriously? Our family is mixed international/US and we know tons of international kids who attend US universities. There are a few who are mega wealthy, but most are run of the mill well-off. The most sheltered kids absolutely do not leave their home countries to come to the US. They might go to the UK, but rarely go as far as the US, mostly because they are so sheltered.

Even the most sheltered international kids at US schools are generally better traveled and more knowledgeable about different cultures than the American kids. In addition, there are tons of wealthy American kids with live in help, drivers, etc.





Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:International students add diversity and expose American kids to other points of view, something which is desperately needed today. That said, I am a strong believer that public universities should prioritize in state students above all others.


International students are usually wealthier and more sheltered than the richest American kids. Think having maids and live-in staff.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Specifically, I believe that the most meritocratic conditions were in place from approximately 1985 to 2005. By then, colleges had stopped discriminating based on race, gender and religion. Compared to today, the SAT was much more difficult; SAT achievement tests/SAT II’s; grade inflation was less prevalent (teachers, especially in English classes, were tougher for sure); tuition was lower across the board, leading to less of a bimodal economic distribution on campus that we see today; and apps were done on paper, so no “shotgunning.”


Ok. Yes, then the Asians came and they were more meritocratic than everyone else...so then things had to be made favorable for non-Asians.


+1 Above is why.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure the factors you list create more meritocracy but the overall level of achievement is markedly higher today than back then. Whatever grade inflation and SAT scoring you want to cite, students are taking more advanced courses sooner than ever before. They’re just smarter than we ever were.


You are conflating smarter with higher achieving.


This^^^

Not sure it's always better to be taking 10+ AP courses in HS.

I was tops in my class, 1400 SAT/4.0 UW in the 80s. I took 2 AP courses as that is all my HS offered (English in 12th and APUSH). There were not AP science courses available. 400+ in my graduating class and only 13 of us made it to Calculus in HS (12th grade)--not AP calc. Yet somehow we all went on to be successful adults, but with way less stress and mental health issues. I suspect that's partly due to us being allowed to be HSers, not college students at age 15.
I attended a T10 university and graduated with a 3.9 GPA with a double major that required me to take overload almost every semester in my 5 years in 2 difficult majors/time consuming majors.


So despite higher achievement, which is the only tangible evidence you have , you’re comfortable calling them dumber. Ok.


I have tangible evidence every day at work that the current undergraduate population is _less_prepared_. I don't learn anything about the HS stats even of the students who are majors in my program. I don't hear about their GPAs or their APs, and every year I have to tell them to take their HS extracurriculars off their resumes. All I know is that they cannot do a whole basket of things as well as students could 20 years ago: absorb written material, identify important concepts, and redeploy them in arguments; memorize key details that are too fundamental and important to be left aside for notes or Google; plan ahead for complex or long-term projects; strike out on their own to find potentially appropriate research materials; write in an organized and compelling way, with minimal errors; and assume with humility and maturity the consequences of their own choices. This is not just a pandemic thing, and those who think high stats are a sign of great college preparation might want to make sure that their students are ready in these other ways, too. Because I can't see your SAT score: all I know is that I have to show you how to mine your textbook properly for high-priority information or constantly tell you to provide evidence in your papers. Yes, I'm paid to do that, but you'd get much more out of our time together (and your tuition dollars) if you could already do that and I could teach you how to participate in the wider world of our discipline.

--College prof
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure the factors you list create more meritocracy but the overall level of achievement is markedly higher today than back then. Whatever grade inflation and SAT scoring you want to cite, students are taking more advanced courses sooner than ever before. They’re just smarter than we ever were.


You are conflating smarter with higher achieving.


This^^^

Not sure it's always better to be taking 10+ AP courses in HS.

I was tops in my class, 1400 SAT/4.0 UW in the 80s. I took 2 AP courses as that is all my HS offered (English in 12th and APUSH). There were not AP science courses available. 400+ in my graduating class and only 13 of us made it to Calculus in HS (12th grade)--not AP calc. Yet somehow we all went on to be successful adults, but with way less stress and mental health issues. I suspect that's partly due to us being allowed to be HSers, not college students at age 15.
I attended a T10 university and graduated with a 3.9 GPA with a double major that required me to take overload almost every semester in my 5 years in 2 difficult majors/time consuming majors.


So despite higher achievement, which is the only tangible evidence you have , you’re comfortable calling them dumber. Ok.


I have tangible evidence every day at work that the current undergraduate population is _less_prepared_. I don't learn anything about the HS stats even of the students who are majors in my program. I don't hear about their GPAs or their APs, and every year I have to tell them to take their HS extracurriculars off their resumes. All I know is that they cannot do a whole basket of things as well as students could 20 years ago: absorb written material, identify important concepts, and redeploy them in arguments; memorize key details that are too fundamental and important to be left aside for notes or Google; plan ahead for complex or long-term projects; strike out on their own to find potentially appropriate research materials; write in an organized and compelling way, with minimal errors; and assume with humility and maturity the consequences of their own choices. This is not just a pandemic thing, and those who think high stats are a sign of great college preparation might want to make sure that their students are ready in these other ways, too. Because I can't see your SAT score: all I know is that I have to show you how to mine your textbook properly for high-priority information or constantly tell you to provide evidence in your papers. Yes, I'm paid to do that, but you'd get much more out of our time together (and your tuition dollars) if you could already do that and I could teach you how to participate in the wider world of our discipline.

--College prof


Not a college prof, but I'm seeing this. How does a kid learn this when the school hasn't taught it? Is it time to call a tutor?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Usually? Seriously? Our family is mixed international/US and we know tons of international kids who attend US universities. There are a few who are mega wealthy, but most are run of the mill well-off. The most sheltered kids absolutely do not leave their home countries to come to the US. They might go to the UK, but rarely go as far as the US, mostly because they are so sheltered.

Even the most sheltered international kids at US schools are generally better traveled and more knowledgeable about different cultures than the American kids. In addition, there are tons of wealthy American kids with live in help, drivers, etc.





Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:International students add diversity and expose American kids to other points of view, something which is desperately needed today. That said, I am a strong believer that public universities should prioritize in state students above all others.


International students are usually wealthier and more sheltered than the richest American kids. Think having maids and live-in staff.


You cannot get a student visa without proving that you have at least $10k in cash on hand. You aren’t eligible for any federal loans. Live-in help is very uncommon in the U.S. I would rather see more rural American kids at elite schools.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Firstly, family wealth was probably a far greater influence than grades; however, are meritocratic values really the best measures for what a college wants and needs? Does it really matter if someone got a 1400 vs a 1500 SAT in terms of their future success? (By the way, SAT scores are highly correlated with wealth, which goes back to the wealth factor above.) Don’t people who have different skill sets still bring value (i.e. different viewpoints)? I think the point schools are trying to make is that they don’t necessarily want only people who have the highest grades — there are other skills and perspectives to bring to the table.


SAT scores are more correlated with race than wealth. Which is uncomfortable to discuss.


Race correlates with wealth, too, so we are saying the same thing.
Anonymous
Test scores add to the predictive power of gpa, even when controlling for ethnicity and wealth.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Firstly, family wealth was probably a far greater influence than grades; however, are meritocratic values really the best measures for what a college wants and needs? Does it really matter if someone got a 1400 vs a 1500 SAT in terms of their future success? (By the way, SAT scores are highly correlated with wealth, which goes back to the wealth factor above.) Don’t people who have different skill sets still bring value (i.e. different viewpoints)? I think the point schools are trying to make is that they don’t necessarily want only people who have the highest grades — there are other skills and perspectives to bring to the table.


SAT scores are more correlated with race than wealth. Which is uncomfortable to discuss.


The SAT has racist origins (i.e. Eugenics). Look at the history of standardized testing n the U.S.

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure the factors you list create more meritocracy but the overall level of achievement is markedly higher today than back then. Whatever grade inflation and SAT scoring you want to cite, students are taking more advanced courses sooner than ever before. They’re just smarter than we ever were.


You are conflating smarter with higher achieving.


This^^^

Not sure it's always better to be taking 10+ AP courses in HS.

I was tops in my class, 1400 SAT/4.0 UW in the 80s. I took 2 AP courses as that is all my HS offered (English in 12th and APUSH). There were not AP science courses available. 400+ in my graduating class and only 13 of us made it to Calculus in HS (12th grade)--not AP calc. Yet somehow we all went on to be successful adults, but with way less stress and mental health issues. I suspect that's partly due to us being allowed to be HSers, not college students at age 15.
I attended a T10 university and graduated with a 3.9 GPA with a double major that required me to take overload almost every semester in my 5 years in 2 difficult majors/time consuming majors.


So despite higher achievement, which is the only tangible evidence you have , you’re comfortable calling them dumber. Ok.


I have tangible evidence every day at work that the current undergraduate population is _less_prepared_. I don't learn anything about the HS stats even of the students who are majors in my program. I don't hear about their GPAs or their APs, and every year I have to tell them to take their HS extracurriculars off their resumes. All I know is that they cannot do a whole basket of things as well as students could 20 years ago: absorb written material, identify important concepts, and redeploy them in arguments; memorize key details that are too fundamental and important to be left aside for notes or Google; plan ahead for complex or long-term projects; strike out on their own to find potentially appropriate research materials; write in an organized and compelling way, with minimal errors; and assume with humility and maturity the consequences of their own choices. This is not just a pandemic thing, and those who think high stats are a sign of great college preparation might want to make sure that their students are ready in these other ways, too. Because I can't see your SAT score: all I know is that I have to show you how to mine your textbook properly for high-priority information or constantly tell you to provide evidence in your papers. Yes, I'm paid to do that, but you'd get much more out of our time together (and your tuition dollars) if you could already do that and I could teach you how to participate in the wider world of our discipline.

--College prof


This is interesting, because last year several “profs” on this board claimed they could see all of that (SAT, GPA, etc. — they used it to justify some argument). Regardless, I think your viewpoint is the general trend across the country; however, I do believe in this region, this alleged dumbing down is not the case. Maybe I’m biased because we live in a good school district, but my kids, and their friends are waaaay more intelligent and capable that I ever was at their age. They are better writers, they get conceptual math, they know their science and history, they can make valid arguments, etc.
Anonymous


I have tangible evidence every day at work that the current undergraduate population is _less_prepared_. I don't learn anything about the HS stats even of the students who are majors in my program. I don't hear about their GPAs or their APs, and every year I have to tell them to take their HS extracurriculars off their resumes. All I know is that they cannot do a whole basket of things as well as students could 20 years ago: absorb written material, identify important concepts, and redeploy them in arguments; memorize key details that are too fundamental and important to be left aside for notes or Google; plan ahead for complex or long-term projects; strike out on their own to find potentially appropriate research materials; write in an organized and compelling way, with minimal errors; and assume with humility and maturity the consequences of their own choices. This is not just a pandemic thing, and those who think high stats are a sign of great college preparation might want to make sure that their students are ready in these other ways, too. Because I can't see your SAT score: all I know is that I have to show you how to mine your textbook properly for high-priority information or constantly tell you to provide evidence in your papers. Yes, I'm paid to do that, but you'd get much more out of our time together (and your tuition dollars) if you could already do that and I could teach you how to participate in the wider world of our discipline.

--College prof

This is interesting, because last year several “profs” on this board claimed they could see all of that (SAT, GPA, etc. — they used it to justify some argument). Regardless, I think your viewpoint is the general trend across the country; however, I do believe in this region, this alleged dumbing down is not the case. Maybe I’m biased because we live in a good school district, but my kids, and their friends are waaaay more intelligent and capable that I ever was at their age. They are better writers, they get conceptual math, they know their science and history, they can make valid arguments, etc.

I, too, teach at a university, one that enrolls students who are amongst the best prepared high school students in their cohort (i.e. many students from privileged backgrounds). I second what college prof (whom I've quoted above) has said and would add that my students also have a lot of difficulty following basic instructions.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree. I think the problem is a combination of grade inflation, especially during the Covid virtual year, and test optional. More “qualified” applicants. My daughter has weirdly always wanted to go to Wesleyan and scored a 31 on the act. Their average used to be 32, now it’s 34. So now she can’t submit her normally competitive ACT score because it’s not even 25th percentile. So she went from having some chance to essentially no chance.


Poor thing.


^^^Jerk alert
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure the factors you list create more meritocracy but the overall level of achievement is markedly higher today than back then. Whatever grade inflation and SAT scoring you want to cite, students are taking more advanced courses sooner than ever before. They’re just smarter than we ever were.


College professor here. I disagree completely. I can tell you that students’ performance in recent years has plummeted and that the overall quality is far lower than in the time period to which OP referred. Grade inflation and test score inflation mask what is really going on. The quality of education in this country has declined significantly.


If you ever see this comment: I hope you start a separate thread focusing on this topic.
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