Handmaid’s Tale season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was hard to tell if June actually loves Nick or if she's just using him. It would be a little boring if she was just manipulating him. I want her to really love him and wish the writers had made that clear and developed that part of the story, because whether someone in June's position is capable of feeling love for someone, especially an Eye/commander like Nick, is such an interesting question.

What is one's emotional capacity for love while living such horror? Is romantic love a luxury that's only available when one basic needs and security are assured? Is a healthy and genuine romantic love possible with someone in Nick's compromised situation? If she really loves Nick, does she still love Luke? Who would she choose if she could build a life with one of them in Canada? Would she choose Luke in an attempt to rebuild her old life, or would she choose Nick because she's not the same person and Nick better understands what she's been through and the person she's become?

^^To add. . . It's also interesting because her interaction with Mrs. Keyes showed June as someone who'd basically become Aunt Lydia for the other side-- "Make me proud." So chilling. Could someone who'd assimilated that kind of brutality still be capable of the tenderness of romantic love?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was frustrated by Luke's teary confession that he feels like June is choosing to fight Gilead rather than come be with him in Canada, like she doesn't love him enough and would rather be some rebel hero. He doesn't express any acknowledgement or concern about Hannah. June stayed in Gilead to rescue their daughter! For God's sake, act like a father and not like an insecure man.

He's always been kind of a pathetic character who has never even begun to grasp what they are going through in Gilead. He loves June in-when the rubber hits the road- a pretty superficial way. He has little depth and seems to be mostly focused on his own experience of loss. Doesn't seem like a marriage that would ever get through this if they did come out the other side. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, just unable to relate to much outside his own experiences and loss. It may be intentional on the part of the writers to keep him in the background.

To be fair to Luke, it's not like Hannah running around the Northeast with no real support is in any way calculated to get Hannah back, especially after the passage of this kind of time. And he's basically right -- it doesn't seem like she's at all conflicted about whether to get back to Luke. To the extent she's conflicted about whether to flee to Canada when the opportunity arises, it's all about what the trade off is (saving children, another chance at Hannah) versus her own personal safety. Luke doesn't seem to factor into it.

I'm not enough of a historian to really be able to comment on this, but I think it's pretty grounded in history that even wonderful, caring parents eventually make the decision to leave without their children where they had been separated and didn't even know where the child was, maybe telling themselves that they will then be able to better fight for them later. I'm pretty sure that has been fairly common in the history of awful repressive regimes. So an expectation that she would leave her child behind at some point is not totally out of left field. It's easy for a TV viewer to say "Of course you never leave your child behind!" But in reality, I think the human experience is more complicated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was frustrated by Luke's teary confession that he feels like June is choosing to fight Gilead rather than come be with him in Canada, like she doesn't love him enough and would rather be some rebel hero. He doesn't express any acknowledgement or concern about Hannah. June stayed in Gilead to rescue their daughter! For God's sake, act like a father and not like an insecure man.

He's always been kind of a pathetic character who has never even begun to grasp what they are going through in Gilead. He loves June in-when the rubber hits the road- a pretty superficial way. He has little depth and seems to be mostly focused on his own experience of loss. Doesn't seem like a marriage that would ever get through this if they did come out the other side. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, just unable to relate to much outside his own experiences and loss. It may be intentional on the part of the writers to keep him in the background.

PP here. This seems right to me. One thing I have thought a lot about in the last few years is how little most people are able to appreciate others' situations unless or until they experience it for themselves. The limits of empathy, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was frustrated by Luke's teary confession that he feels like June is choosing to fight Gilead rather than come be with him in Canada, like she doesn't love him enough and would rather be some rebel hero. He doesn't express any acknowledgement or concern about Hannah. June stayed in Gilead to rescue their daughter! For God's sake, act like a father and not like an insecure man.

He's always been kind of a pathetic character who has never even begun to grasp what they are going through in Gilead. He loves June in-when the rubber hits the road- a pretty superficial way. He has little depth and seems to be mostly focused on his own experience of loss. Doesn't seem like a marriage that would ever get through this if they did come out the other side. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, just unable to relate to much outside his own experiences and loss. It may be intentional on the part of the writers to keep him in the background.

Totally agree. He was killed right off the bat in the book so he didn't really have a story, but he seems pretty passive. I don't really want June to end up with anyone necessarily. I feel like she's completely beyond Luke and Nick for very different reasons. I would love this show to end with a replay of June and her mom in the car listening to Gwen Stefani again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was frustrated by Luke's teary confession that he feels like June is choosing to fight Gilead rather than come be with him in Canada, like she doesn't love him enough and would rather be some rebel hero. He doesn't express any acknowledgement or concern about Hannah. June stayed in Gilead to rescue their daughter! For God's sake, act like a father and not like an insecure man.

He's always been kind of a pathetic character who has never even begun to grasp what they are going through in Gilead. He loves June in-when the rubber hits the road- a pretty superficial way. He has little depth and seems to be mostly focused on his own experience of loss. Doesn't seem like a marriage that would ever get through this if they did come out the other side. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, just unable to relate to much outside his own experiences and loss. It may be intentional on the part of the writers to keep him in the background.

To be fair to Luke, it's not like Hannah running around the Northeast with no real support is in any way calculated to get Hannah back, especially after the passage of this kind of time. And he's basically right -- it doesn't seem like she's at all conflicted about whether to get back to Luke. To the extent she's conflicted about whether to flee to Canada when the opportunity arises, it's all about what the trade off is (saving children, another chance at Hannah) versus her own personal safety. Luke doesn't seem to factor into it.

I'm not enough of a historian to really be able to comment on this, but I think it's pretty grounded in history that even wonderful, caring parents eventually make the decision to leave without their children where they had been separated and didn't even know where the child was, maybe telling themselves that they will then be able to better fight for them later. I'm pretty sure that has been fairly common in the history of awful repressive regimes. So an expectation that she would leave her child behind at some point is not totally out of left field. It's easy for a TV viewer to say "Of course you never leave your child behind!" But in reality, I think the human experience is more complicated.

I agree, but when June put Emily in that truck with Nicole and chose to stay I felt that on a maternal level - a lot. That was a TV moment that really, really clicked. I think both things could have been done, but this season is setting things up for June to question whether it's better for her to take Hannah or not.

Totally right to say it's complicated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was frustrated by Luke's teary confession that he feels like June is choosing to fight Gilead rather than come be with him in Canada, like she doesn't love him enough and would rather be some rebel hero. He doesn't express any acknowledgement or concern about Hannah. June stayed in Gilead to rescue their daughter! For God's sake, act like a father and not like an insecure man.

He's always been kind of a pathetic character who has never even begun to grasp what they are going through in Gilead. He loves June in-when the rubber hits the road- a pretty superficial way. He has little depth and seems to be mostly focused on his own experience of loss. Doesn't seem like a marriage that would ever get through this if they did come out the other side. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, just unable to relate to much outside his own experiences and loss. It may be intentional on the part of the writers to keep him in the background.

To be fair to Luke, it's not like Hannah running around the Northeast with no real support is in any way calculated to get Hannah back, especially after the passage of this kind of time. And he's basically right -- it doesn't seem like she's at all conflicted about whether to get back to Luke. To the extent she's conflicted about whether to flee to Canada when the opportunity arises, it's all about what the trade off is (saving children, another chance at Hannah) versus her own personal safety. Luke doesn't seem to factor into it.

I'm not enough of a historian to really be able to comment on this, but I think it's pretty grounded in history that even wonderful, caring parents eventually make the decision to leave without their children where they had been separated and didn't even know where the child was, maybe telling themselves that they will then be able to better fight for them later. I'm pretty sure that has been fairly common in the history of awful repressive regimes. So an expectation that she would leave her child behind at some point is not totally out of left field. It's easy for a TV viewer to say "Of course you never leave your child behind!" But in reality, I think the human experience is more complicated.

I agree, but when June put Emily in that truck with Nicole and chose to stay I felt that on a maternal level - a lot. That was a TV moment that really, really clicked. I think both things could have been done, but this season is setting things up for June to question whether it's better for her to take Hannah or not.

Totally right to say it's complicated.

^^Would also say that based on my own life that getting back to my husband would be second or third order if I had been through all that June has been through. Not to mention if I thought I was the only one that could possibly rescue one of my children I would probably risk my life for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t read the thread because I haven’t caught up, I am in the prison, but I’m would just like to complain that this storyline about making June “talk” makes no sense. They have surely been moved. The whole point of the secret network is that she has no one else to give up.

I have now finished and I am still mad about this. And about Nick. The Bradley Whitford storyline is dumb, I’m sorry. They’re going to have to be more specific about “needing” him for me to buy any of it.

But mostly I am mad about the hand maids still being in the same place. It just makes no sense!! They would know that they would be better off hiding in the woods or idk but there’s no way anyone involved, including them, would have used that safe house. It’s madness. It’s distractingly bad writing.

I feel like I just watched a bunch of uncomfortable torture only to have the plot line be so bad that I am just mad about the nightmares I’m going to have and I didn’t even get to enjoy the show because I was thinking the whole time how silly it was. They could have thought of something else - a commander she knows is secretly Mayday, whatever. Anything but “where are the hand maids” because that makes no sense.

Commander Lawrence was crucial to planning Gilead. There are not a lot of Big Thinkers in Gilead, and presumably they need him to help plan and troubleshoot their next moves now that they have multiple war fronts and the crises in Canada.

The handmaids had moved on to the second farmhouse, which would have been secure had June not given them up. They trusted her completely, so hiding in that basement was in theory much safer than wandering around the countryside looking for someplace to hide several people. Where else could they have gone, unnoticed? Not to mention that June had been the one calling all the shots since before the airlift. They were without leadership. The handmaids are more crucial to the success of Gilead than ever since so many children were removed; they are Gilead’s most valuable resource, so it doesn’t surprise me that June was tortured until she gave them up. On a related note, the guard who killed the handmaids is certainly not long for this world.

Commander Lawrence stole 89 children! Wtf kind of “big thinking” is he doing for them? I’d like to see the powerpoints that got him out of execution in that scenario.

Alma and Janine are not idiots, and neither is the Commander who owns the farm house. Everyone talks under torture. They would move immediately even at huge risk.

[Anonymous]

Am I the only one who hates Nick? He’s a traitor who freely participated in overthrowing his government and as a soldier murdered his fellow Americans. All because he was a sad little man who couldn’t hold down a job. Cry me a river, Nick. I hope he ends up in jail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was frustrated by Luke's teary confession that he feels like June is choosing to fight Gilead rather than come be with him in Canada, like she doesn't love him enough and would rather be some rebel hero. He doesn't express any acknowledgement or concern about Hannah. June stayed in Gilead to rescue their daughter! For God's sake, act like a father and not like an insecure man.

He's always been kind of a pathetic character who has never even begun to grasp what they are going through in Gilead. He loves June in-when the rubber hits the road- a pretty superficial way. He has little depth and seems to be mostly focused on his own experience of loss. Doesn't seem like a marriage that would ever get through this if they did come out the other side. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, just unable to relate to much outside his own experiences and loss. It may be intentional on the part of the writers to keep him in the background.

To be fair to Luke, it's not like Hannah running around the Northeast with no real support is in any way calculated to get Hannah back, especially after the passage of this kind of time. And he's basically right -- it doesn't seem like she's at all conflicted about whether to get back to Luke. To the extent she's conflicted about whether to flee to Canada when the opportunity arises, it's all about what the trade off is (saving children, another chance at Hannah) versus her own personal safety. Luke doesn't seem to factor into it.

I'm not enough of a historian to really be able to comment on this, but I think it's pretty grounded in history that even wonderful, caring parents eventually make the decision to leave without their children where they had been separated and didn't even know where the child was, maybe telling themselves that they will then be able to better fight for them later. I'm pretty sure that has been fairly common in the history of awful repressive regimes. So an expectation that she would leave her child behind at some point is not totally out of left field. It's easy for a TV viewer to say "Of course you never leave your child behind!" But in reality, I think the human experience is more complicated.

I get the sense that the scene where Hannah was afraid of June but not the other adults was designed to make it easier for June to leave her behind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t read the thread because I haven’t caught up, I am in the prison, but I’m would just like to complain that this storyline about making June “talk” makes no sense. They have surely been moved. The whole point of the secret network is that she has no one else to give up.

I have now finished and I am still mad about this. And about Nick. The Bradley Whitford storyline is dumb, I’m sorry. They’re going to have to be more specific about “needing” him for me to buy any of it.

But mostly I am mad about the hand maids still being in the same place. It just makes no sense!! They would know that they would be better off hiding in the woods or idk but there’s no way anyone involved, including them, would have used that safe house. It’s madness. It’s distractingly bad writing.

I feel like I just watched a bunch of uncomfortable torture only to have the plot line be so bad that I am just mad about the nightmares I’m going to have and I didn’t even get to enjoy the show because I was thinking the whole time how silly it was. They could have thought of something else - a commander she knows is secretly Mayday, whatever. Anything but “where are the hand maids” because that makes no sense.

Commander Lawrence was crucial to planning Gilead. There are not a lot of Big Thinkers in Gilead, and presumably they need him to help plan and troubleshoot their next moves now that they have multiple war fronts and the crises in Canada.

The handmaids had moved on to the second farmhouse, which would have been secure had June not given them up. They trusted her completely, so hiding in that basement was in theory much safer than wandering around the countryside looking for someplace to hide several people. Where else could they have gone, unnoticed? Not to mention that June had been the one calling all the shots since before the airlift. They were without leadership. The handmaids are more crucial to the success of Gilead than ever since so many children were removed; they are Gilead’s most valuable resource, so it doesn’t surprise me that June was tortured until she gave them up. On a related note, the guard who killed the handmaids is certainly not long for this world.

Commander Lawrence stole 89 children! Wtf kind of “big thinking” is he doing for them? I’d like to see the powerpoints that got him out of execution in that scenario.

Alma and Janine are not idiots, and neither is the Commander who owns the farm house. Everyone talks under torture. They would move immediately even at huge risk.

Lawrence couldn’t have cared less about those kids. He designed Gilead’s economy and perhaps other fundamental aspects of it; with so many commanders killed and incapacitated at the Jezebels party, Gilead needs him. He’s one of the few strategists they have. They can all take the view that he was taken advantage of, and both sides win. Regarding the Power Point, it was likely drafted by Nick.

Regarding staying at the second farmhouse, they were out of options and without a leader. They had no reason to think that they would have been safer running through the woods without resources or a destination vs. hiding in that basement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only one who hates Nick? He’s a traitor who freely participated in overthrowing his government and as a soldier murdered his fellow Americans. All because he was a sad little man who couldn’t hold down a job. Cry me a river, Nick. I hope he ends up in jail.

I’m not a fan of Nick’s either, and was shocked when June ran up and kissed him. Sure he “kept her alive,” but he really hasn’t stretched out his neck to prevent other atrocities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was frustrated by Luke's teary confession that he feels like June is choosing to fight Gilead rather than come be with him in Canada, like she doesn't love him enough and would rather be some rebel hero. He doesn't express any acknowledgement or concern about Hannah. June stayed in Gilead to rescue their daughter! For God's sake, act like a father and not like an insecure man.

He's always been kind of a pathetic character who has never even begun to grasp what they are going through in Gilead. He loves June in-when the rubber hits the road- a pretty superficial way. He has little depth and seems to be mostly focused on his own experience of loss. Doesn't seem like a marriage that would ever get through this if they did come out the other side. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, just unable to relate to much outside his own experiences and loss. It may be intentional on the part of the writers to keep him in the background.

PP here. This seems right to me. One thing I have thought a lot about in the last few years is how little most people are able to appreciate others' situations unless or until they experience it for themselves. The limits of empathy, I guess.

I lost respect for him and Moira when they whined about her staying behind. Their child is in Gilead! If my spouse and child were left behind in a dangerous situation, I would fully expect spouse to risk life and limb to get the child to safety. I certainly wouldn’t whine about being abandoned to “clean up her mess.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t read the thread because I haven’t caught up, I am in the prison, but I’m would just like to complain that this storyline about making June “talk” makes no sense. They have surely been moved. The whole point of the secret network is that she has no one else to give up.

I have now finished and I am still mad about this. And about Nick. The Bradley Whitford storyline is dumb, I’m sorry. They’re going to have to be more specific about “needing” him for me to buy any of it.

But mostly I am mad about the hand maids still being in the same place. It just makes no sense!! They would know that they would be better off hiding in the woods or idk but there’s no way anyone involved, including them, would have used that safe house. It’s madness. It’s distractingly bad writing.

I feel like I just watched a bunch of uncomfortable torture only to have the plot line be so bad that I am just mad about the nightmares I’m going to have and I didn’t even get to enjoy the show because I was thinking the whole time how silly it was. They could have thought of something else - a commander she knows is secretly Mayday, whatever. Anything but “where are the hand maids” because that makes no sense.

Commander Lawrence was crucial to planning Gilead. There are not a lot of Big Thinkers in Gilead, and presumably they need him to help plan and troubleshoot their next moves now that they have multiple war fronts and the crises in Canada.

The handmaids had moved on to the second farmhouse, which would have been secure had June not given them up. They trusted her completely, so hiding in that basement was in theory much safer than wandering around the countryside looking for someplace to hide several people. Where else could they have gone, unnoticed? Not to mention that June had been the one calling all the shots since before the airlift. They were without leadership. The handmaids are more crucial to the success of Gilead than ever since so many children were removed; they are Gilead’s most valuable resource, so it doesn’t surprise me that June was tortured until she gave them up. On a related note, the guard who killed the handmaids is certainly not long for this world.

Commander Lawrence stole 89 children! Wtf kind of “big thinking” is he doing for them? I’d like to see the powerpoints that got him out of execution in that scenario.

Alma and Janine are not idiots, and neither is the Commander who owns the farm house. Everyone talks under torture. They would move immediately even at huge risk.

I agree, but think they had no way of knowing June was captured.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t read the thread because I haven’t caught up, I am in the prison, but I’m would just like to complain that this storyline about making June “talk” makes no sense. They have surely been moved. The whole point of the secret network is that she has no one else to give up.

I have now finished and I am still mad about this. And about Nick. The Bradley Whitford storyline is dumb, I’m sorry. They’re going to have to be more specific about “needing” him for me to buy any of it.

But mostly I am mad about the hand maids still being in the same place. It just makes no sense!! They would know that they would be better off hiding in the woods or idk but there’s no way anyone involved, including them, would have used that safe house. It’s madness. It’s distractingly bad writing.

I feel like I just watched a bunch of uncomfortable torture only to have the plot line be so bad that I am just mad about the nightmares I’m going to have and I didn’t even get to enjoy the show because I was thinking the whole time how silly it was. They could have thought of something else - a commander she knows is secretly Mayday, whatever. Anything but “where are the hand maids” because that makes no sense.

Commander Lawrence was crucial to planning Gilead. There are not a lot of Big Thinkers in Gilead, and presumably they need him to help plan and troubleshoot their next moves now that they have multiple war fronts and the crises in Canada.

The handmaids had moved on to the second farmhouse, which would have been secure had June not given them up. They trusted her completely, so hiding in that basement was in theory much safer than wandering around the countryside looking for someplace to hide several people. Where else could they have gone, unnoticed? Not to mention that June had been the one calling all the shots since before the airlift. They were without leadership. The handmaids are more crucial to the success of Gilead than ever since so many children were removed; they are Gilead’s most valuable resource, so it doesn’t surprise me that June was tortured until she gave them up. On a related note, the guard who killed the handmaids is certainly not long for this world.

Commander Lawrence stole 89 children! Wtf kind of “big thinking” is he doing for them? I’d like to see the powerpoints that got him out of execution in that scenario.

Alma and Janine are not idiots, and neither is the Commander who owns the farm house. Everyone talks under torture. They would move immediately even at huge risk.

I agree, but think they had no way of knowing June was captured.

A person who goes on a mission is presumed captured if they do not return as scheduled. A captive is presumed to be going to break and talk.

They should have hot footed it out of there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t read the thread because I haven’t caught up, I am in the prison, but I’m would just like to complain that this storyline about making June “talk” makes no sense. They have surely been moved. The whole point of the secret network is that she has no one else to give up.

I have now finished and I am still mad about this. And about Nick. The Bradley Whitford storyline is dumb, I’m sorry. They’re going to have to be more specific about “needing” him for me to buy any of it.

But mostly I am mad about the hand maids still being in the same place. It just makes no sense!! They would know that they would be better off hiding in the woods or idk but there’s no way anyone involved, including them, would have used that safe house. It’s madness. It’s distractingly bad writing.

I feel like I just watched a bunch of uncomfortable torture only to have the plot line be so bad that I am just mad about the nightmares I’m going to have and I didn’t even get to enjoy the show because I was thinking the whole time how silly it was. They could have thought of something else - a commander she knows is secretly Mayday, whatever. Anything but “where are the hand maids” because that makes no sense.

Commander Lawrence was crucial to planning Gilead. There are not a lot of Big Thinkers in Gilead, and presumably they need him to help plan and troubleshoot their next moves now that they have multiple war fronts and the crises in Canada.

The handmaids had moved on to the second farmhouse, which would have been secure had June not given them up. They trusted her completely, so hiding in that basement was in theory much safer than wandering around the countryside looking for someplace to hide several people. Where else could they have gone, unnoticed? Not to mention that June had been the one calling all the shots since before the airlift. They were without leadership. The handmaids are more crucial to the success of Gilead than ever since so many children were removed; they are Gilead’s most valuable resource, so it doesn’t surprise me that June was tortured until she gave them up. On a related note, the guard who killed the handmaids is certainly not long for this world.

Commander Lawrence stole 89 children! Wtf kind of “big thinking” is he doing for them? I’d like to see the powerpoints that got him out of execution in that scenario.

Alma and Janine are not idiots, and neither is the Commander who owns the farm house. Everyone talks under torture. They would move immediately even at huge risk.

I agree, but think they had no way of knowing June was captured.

Yeah, what? Of course they knew she was captured.