Lottery Issue + Language Immersion Format + Homeschool/Co-Op Inquiry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But they have long wait lists anyway where student populations aren't majority FARMs. Other than Spanish, teaching immersion languages dissuades most poor families from entering the lotteries. Works like a charm for the gentrifiers, and a little language exposure is nice, too. The system wouldn't fly in states with a lot of high performing schools, particularly Cal and NY, but it's widely considered good enough for DC.

Why don't poor families like immersion?

If you dare to ask the non-PC question (privately or aloud), how practical is it for poor kids whose whose family members to struggle to speak and write grammatical English to be enrolled in immersion programs teaching languages not spoken at home?

I'm thanking my lucky stars that wasn't the case for this DCPS parent growing up in an urban housing project with semi literate parents and an illiterate grandparent. I had more than enough on my linguistic plate as a little kid in learning to speak, read, and write standard English. Thankfully, my parents got that, although I could have been enrolled in an early public Spanish immersion program.

I did fine in MS and HS Spanish, and speak Spanish pretty well as an adult. I graduated from a top public university, earned a PhD, and have held down a good Federal job for 25 years.

Good DC liberals, be careful what you wish for where poor kids are concerned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But they have long wait lists anyway where student populations aren't majority FARMs. Other than Spanish, teaching immersion languages dissuades most poor families from entering the lotteries. Works like a charm for the gentrifiers, and a little language exposure is nice, too. The system wouldn't fly in states with a lot of high performing schools, particularly Cal and NY, but it's widely considered good enough for DC.

Why don't poor families like immersion?

What makes you say they don't?

Most of the DCPS dual language schools are Title 1 (Powell, Marie Reed, Bancroft, etc). Pretty much every school except Oyster.

As for charters --

DCB - 99% economically disadvantaged
Stokes - 52% economically disadvantaged
Mundo Verde 29% economically disadvantaged
LAMB 25.4% economically disadvantaged
YY - 10.5% economically disadvantaged
Sela - 57.1% economically disadvantaged

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But they have long wait lists anyway where student populations aren't majority FARMs. Other than Spanish, teaching immersion languages dissuades most poor families from entering the lotteries. Works like a charm for the gentrifiers, and a little language exposure is nice, too. The system wouldn't fly in states with a lot of high performing schools, particularly Cal and NY, but it's widely considered good enough for DC.

Why don't poor families like immersion?

If you dare to ask the non-PC question (privately or aloud), how practical is it for poor kids whose whose family members to struggle to speak and write grammatical English to be enrolled in immersion programs teaching languages not spoken at home?

I'm thanking my lucky stars that wasn't the case for this DCPS parent growing up in an urban housing project with semi literate parents and an illiterate grandparent. I had more than enough on my linguistic plate as a little kid in learning to speak, read, and write standard English. Thankfully, my parents got that, although I could have been enrolled in an early public Spanish immersion program.

I did fine in MS and HS Spanish, and speak Spanish pretty well as an adult. I graduated from a top public university, earned a PhD, and have held down a good Federal job for 25 years.

Good DC liberals, be careful what you wish for where poor kids are concerned.

There are a raft of studies that find that learning a second language improves children's performance in their native language. These studies control for student's initial level of language competence, i.e. it's true for all kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But they have long wait lists anyway where student populations aren't majority FARMs. Other than Spanish, teaching immersion languages dissuades most poor families from entering the lotteries. Works like a charm for the gentrifiers, and a little language exposure is nice, too. The system wouldn't fly in states with a lot of high performing schools, particularly Cal and NY, but it's widely considered good enough for DC.

Why don't poor families like immersion?

If you dare to ask the non-PC question (privately or aloud), how practical is it for poor kids whose whose family members to struggle to speak and write grammatical English to be enrolled in immersion programs teaching languages not spoken at home?

I'm thanking my lucky stars that wasn't the case for this DCPS parent growing up in an urban housing project with semi literate parents and an illiterate grandparent. I had more than enough on my linguistic plate as a little kid in learning to speak, read, and write standard English. Thankfully, my parents got that, although I could have been enrolled in an early public Spanish immersion program.

I did fine in MS and HS Spanish, and speak Spanish pretty well as an adult. I graduated from a top public university, earned a PhD, and have held down a good Federal job for 25 years.

Good DC liberals, be careful what you wish for where poor kids are concerned.

There are a raft of studies that find that learning a second language improves children's performance in their native language. These studies control for student's initial level of language competence, i.e. it's true for all kids.

Improve what and by how much?

[Anonymous]

Not buying it. Self-serving studies that fly in the face of common sense deserve to be ignored.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But they have long wait lists anyway where student populations aren't majority FARMs. Other than Spanish, teaching immersion languages dissuades most poor families from entering the lotteries. Works like a charm for the gentrifiers, and a little language exposure is nice, too. The system wouldn't fly in states with a lot of high performing schools, particularly Cal and NY, but it's widely considered good enough for DC.

Why don't poor families like immersion?

What makes you say they don't?

Most of the DCPS dual language schools are Title 1 (Powell, Marie Reed, Bancroft, etc). Pretty much every school except Oyster.

As for charters --

DCB - 99% economically disadvantaged
Stokes - 52% economically disadvantaged
Mundo Verde 29% economically disadvantaged
LAMB 25.4% economically disadvantaged
YY - 10.5% economically disadvantaged
Sela - 57.1% economically disadvantaged

Wonderful, immersion Spanish for low SES native/semi-native Spanish speakers and other kids who aren't low SES. That makes sense in the DC context!

We bailed on YY some years back. The poor kids' Mandarin was dreadful in the upper grades, almost to a kid (vs. the Mandarin of the UMC families like us hosting Chinese au pairs). Their English wasn't too hot either. The YY model started to seem misguided. Admins flattered us all without looking too hard at real problems w/low SES involvement. Never met a low SES Chinese-speaking family at YY.

But, yea, let's all pretend that the cognitive boost kids get from language immersion is all that matters!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things aren't all that different at our Spanish immersion DCPS. It' maybe 10% native speakers and the kids hardly use Spanish outside class. We're thinking of pulling out.

Which school is this?

I dont believe it either. Other an tyler spanish track, all the DCPS dual spanish schools are waaaay more than 10%, probably closer to 50% or higher at most schools.

I believe it. DCPS immersion schools are not great, to put it mildly.

Actually, the one my kid attended was pretty great.

Can you please share what school your child attended?

And can anyone chime in with the extent to which RESPONDING IN TARGET LANGUAGE is demanded by immersion teacher? This seems like common sense to me, but I just found out its not standard. Are there any DCPS/charter programs that require this school-wide? Or is it a matter of individual teacher's standards?

[Anonymous]

I love you, “common sense but not science” poster. You are what made America great again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things aren't all that different at our Spanish immersion DCPS. It' maybe 10% native speakers and the kids hardly use Spanish outside class. We're thinking of pulling out.

Which school is this?

I dont believe it either. Other an tyler spanish track, all the DCPS dual spanish schools are waaaay more than 10%, probably closer to 50% or higher at most schools.

I believe it. DCPS immersion schools are not great, to put it mildly.

Actually, the one my kid attended was pretty great.

Can you please share what school your child attended?

And can anyone chime in with the extent to which RESPONDING IN TARGET LANGUAGE is demanded by immersion teacher? This seems like common sense to me, but I just found out its not standard. Are there any DCPS/charter programs that require this school-wide? Or is it a matter of individual teacher's standards?

Our charter demands the children respond in the native language. Additionally, this is done gently, with greater expectations increasing as time goes on. In the first few months, there is some English allowed. As the year progresses, Spanish is spoken during Spanish time. Within three months you can hear the three year olds start to use words and basic sentences. Aftercare is 100% spanish. I volunteer a lot and have seen this with my own eyes. Also I am a native speaker so I am very critical, but even I am impressed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things aren't all that different at our Spanish immersion DCPS. It' maybe 10% native speakers and the kids hardly use Spanish outside class. We're thinking of pulling out.

Which school is this?

I dont believe it either. Other an tyler spanish track, all the DCPS dual spanish schools are waaaay more than 10%, probably closer to 50% or higher at most schools.

I believe it. DCPS immersion schools are not great, to put it mildly.

Actually, the one my kid attended was pretty great.

Can you please share what school your child attended?

And can anyone chime in with the extent to which RESPONDING IN TARGET LANGUAGE is demanded by immersion teacher? This seems like common sense to me, but I just found out its not standard. Are there any DCPS/charter programs that require this school-wide? Or is it a matter of individual teacher's standards?

Our charter demands the children respond in the native language. Additionally, this is done gently, with greater expectations increasing as time goes on. In the first few months, there is some English allowed. As the year progresses, Spanish is spoken during Spanish time. Within three months you can hear the three year olds start to use words and basic sentences. Aftercare is 100% spanish. I volunteer a lot and have seen this with my own eyes. Also I am a native speaker so I am very critical, but even I am impressed.

Meant to say ONLY Spanish is spoken during Spanish time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things aren't all that different at our Spanish immersion DCPS. It' maybe 10% native speakers and the kids hardly use Spanish outside class. We're thinking of pulling out.

Which school is this?

I dont believe it either. Other an tyler spanish track, all the DCPS dual spanish schools are waaaay more than 10%, probably closer to 50% or higher at most schools.

I believe it. DCPS immersion schools are not great, to put it mildly.

Actually, the one my kid attended was pretty great.

Can you please share what school your child attended?

And can anyone chime in with the extent to which RESPONDING IN TARGET LANGUAGE is demanded by immersion teacher? This seems like common sense to me, but I just found out its not standard. Are there any DCPS/charter programs that require this school-wide? Or is it a matter of individual teacher's standards?

Our charter demands the children respond in the native language. Additionally, this is done gently, with greater expectations increasing as time goes on. In the first few months, there is some English allowed. As the year progresses, Spanish is spoken during Spanish time. Within three months you can hear the three year olds start to use words and basic sentences. Aftercare is 100% spanish. I volunteer a lot and have seen this with my own eyes. Also I am a native speaker so I am very critical, but even I am impressed.

Which school is this?

[Anonymous]

3. How many PK/K hours per day or week is Mandarin taught at Thomson? How many at Creative Minds? Do ANY other schools offer Mandarin on a regular basis? Are there any new Mandarin programs on the horizon?

Thomson --
PK gets Chinese exposure. The teacher comes into the classroom every few weeks to teach an age appropriate lesson, but its not year-round.

Kinder gets Mandarian once a week as a special like music or PE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
3. How many PK/K hours per day or week is Mandarin taught at Thomson? How many at Creative Minds? Do ANY other schools offer Mandarin on a regular basis? Are there any new Mandarin programs on the horizon?

Thomson --
PK gets Chinese exposure. The teacher comes into the classroom every few weeks to teach an age appropriate lesson, but its not year-round.

Kinder gets Mandarian once a week as a special like music or PE.

Doesn't Eaton offer Mandarin as a regular special?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things aren't all that different at our Spanish immersion DCPS. It' maybe 10% native speakers and the kids hardly use Spanish outside class. We're thinking of pulling out.

Which school is this?

I dont believe it either. Other an tyler spanish track, all the DCPS dual spanish schools are waaaay more than 10%, probably closer to 50% or higher at most schools.

I believe it. DCPS immersion schools are not great, to put it mildly.

Actually, the one my kid attended was pretty great.

Can you please share what school your child attended?

And can anyone chime in with the extent to which RESPONDING IN TARGET LANGUAGE is demanded by immersion teacher? This seems like common sense to me, but I just found out its not standard. Are there any DCPS/charter programs that require this school-wide? Or is it a matter of individual teacher's standards?

Our charter demands the children respond in the native language. Additionally, this is done gently, with greater expectations increasing as time goes on. In the first few months, there is some English allowed. As the year progresses, Spanish is spoken during Spanish time. Within three months you can hear the three year olds start to use words and basic sentences. Aftercare is 100% spanish. I volunteer a lot and have seen this with my own eyes. Also I am a native speaker so I am very critical, but even I am impressed.

Which school is this?

Lamb. This is not to say there aren't problems. We have had the worst administration of any school I've ever come across. So there are trade offs for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not buying it. Self-serving studies that fly in the face of common sense deserve to be ignored.

This is the precise thing that's wrong with America now. People who consider themselves educated feel free to ignore facts that don't fit their preconceived ideas.

PP, you are the problem.

If you think "studies" are wrong, fine. Ask PP to cite sources and then read the studies, look at peer review comments and meta analysis. Engage as an educated person. Critique specific issues and/or try to understand whether the lessons from previous studies apply to the specific population being discussed.