Harvard is not alone. UC students Without 8th Grade Math Skills Skyrockets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't it good that they are catching this and students can learn math properly? Some high schools don't have good math teachers. Not everyone is able to go to good public/private schools with good teaching. Also, the fact that numbers have tripled in recent years probably has to do with covid, online learning, and just bad math teachers.

+1 Yes, it is good that they are addressing this. What is the alternative no admission for any kids from crappy elementary through high schools that they have zero choice in?

+100 The mission of the UC schools is to educate California kids, and they're doing a great job. UCs have been test blind, and I don't think they're ever going to back to tests. It's working fine for them, and they're willing to remediate kids who need help. I think that's great.

Kids who need remediation should go to CSUs. At some point you have to group students by ability and preparation, and colllege is the latest possible time to do that.

No, you can also do that through hiring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the UCs serve their residents.

I just don't know why some of these state schools are ranked so highly. Sure, Cal, UCLA, Michigan, etc are tough admits from OOS. But from in state? Not really. And are they great students? Not really. That's fine. I think this is how states should act tbh. But these are not T20 colleges.

No, it’s super tough to get into the UCs even if you are in state. The Bay Area produces the most strong students anywhere in America, and it’s impossible to get into the UCs unless you are a savant. That’s why so many California students end up going to college outside of California.

Obviously not if one in eight kids at UCSD need remedial math. The UCs pursue a quota system where they are limited in how many kids they are taking from the most rigorous schools and need to take from the least rigorous as well. Clearly it isn’t working.

It is working in that these bright kids end up spreading out throughout the country, instead of being concentrated in CA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many California high schools allow for unlimited retakes, don't punish for late work, etc. The report details that many of these students come from low-income, English-learning environments.

Even if the UC's still used SAT's they would get the same quality of applicant since they select by high school.

Can you imagine being an OOS student paying $90k a year for something like this?

I’m a California parent. Apparently MCPS allows for retakes. When I read that on DCUM, I was surprised. I also read there are “honors” classes for all students, regardless of capability or interest? My son is applying OOS to UMD and it definitely made me pause. What kind of students will be his classmates if the most competitive district in the state of MD (MCPS) has such lenient policies? At least in California, the top school districts are insanely competitive. Retakes? That would never happen at my child’s school.

They’re not for everyone, but as a California resident the UCs are a state treasure.

as someone who was educated in CA, had kids in young ES there, and then moved to MCPS, for the most part, MD public schools are better than CA public schools.

Yes, there is definitely grade inflation in MCPS, but they are trying to address that, including retakes, though my kid's school has never allowed unlimited retakes.

MCPS has some great magnet programs, too. It's partly why we moved out of the pricey Bay Area, because most public schools don't have gifted or magnet schools, thanks to budget cuts.

BTW, my kid with a 1580 SAT score, and all 5 on 12+ APs, is at UMD as a dual STEM major. There are many at UMD like my kid. Your kid will be fine.

But, agree, I do wish MD had the great public university choices that CA does, but MD is tiny compared to CA.

+1. These stats are a dime a dozen at UMD. They're a dime a dozen at my MD high school.

[Anonymous]

I am California native and I support the UC's approach. Citizen/taxpayers of CA pay for the UCs and its mission is to educate the best and brightest Californians. They use "local context" to identify the top 9% from every Ca high school, including private schools, and guarantee admission to all of them, though don't guarantee which campus (Merced is the auto admit default). Yes that means that the top 9% from under resourced public schools too, so some of those kids have learning gaps and the UC's have support to help them.
Testing would not change this as they would still admit the top 9% by school including from those high schools that most on this board don't care about . . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ 4.0 in Calculus can't pass Algebra” is not supported by what you demonstrated. You can have a 4.0 in mathematics and have never taken calculus.

Only about 30% of high school students take calculus.

People here are obsessed with math but there are many degrees that don’t require calculus. Different skills for different majors.

Yeah, but passing Alg II is generally a high school requirement for graduation. So why can’t kids accepted to college do basic algebra?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many California high schools allow for unlimited retakes, don't punish for late work, etc. The report details that many of these students come from low-income, English-learning environments.

Even if the UC's still used SAT's they would get the same quality of applicant since they select by high school.

Can you imagine being an OOS student paying $90k a year for something like this?

I’m a California parent. Apparently MCPS allows for retakes. When I read that on DCUM, I was surprised. I also read there are “honors” classes for all students, regardless of capability or interest? My son is applying OOS to UMD and it definitely made me pause. What kind of students will be his classmates if the most competitive district in the state of MD (MCPS) has such lenient policies? At least in California, the top school districts are insanely competitive. Retakes? That would never happen at my child’s school.

They’re not for everyone, but as a California resident the UCs are a state treasure.

as someone who was educated in CA, had kids in young ES there, and then moved to MCPS, for the most part, MD public schools are better than CA public schools.

Yes, there is definitely grade inflation in MCPS, but they are trying to address that, including retakes, though my kid's school has never allowed unlimited retakes.

MCPS has some great magnet programs, too. It's partly why we moved out of the pricey Bay Area, because most public schools don't have gifted or magnet schools, thanks to budget cuts.

BTW, my kid with a 1580 SAT score, and all 5 on 12+ APs, is at UMD as a dual STEM major. There are many at UMD like my kid. Your kid will be fine.

But, agree, I do wish MD had the great public university choices that CA does, but MD is tiny compared to CA.

The data says that there are not a lot like your kid at UMD. 36% submit an SAT score, for a total of 2,138 students.

Of these 2,138 students who submitted an SAT score, only 534 students scored above a 1510. UMD has 5,828 freshman.

And of these 534, using any type regression analysis yields fewer than 150 1550+ scorers, and fewer than 50 1580 scorers.

So out of a freshman population of 5,828, approximately 1.5% are like your child.

But 1580 (superscored or otherwise) is in the 99th precentile. So, it tracks. Not over-represented but reasonable. Of course there isn't much distinguishing 1550 from 1580 (one wrong bubble filled or so).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many California high schools allow for unlimited retakes, don't punish for late work, etc. The report details that many of these students come from low-income, English-learning environments.

Even if the UC's still used SAT's they would get the same quality of applicant since they select by high school.

Can you imagine being an OOS student paying $90k a year for something like this?

I’m a California parent. Apparently MCPS allows for retakes. When I read that on DCUM, I was surprised. I also read there are “honors” classes for all students, regardless of capability or interest? My son is applying OOS to UMD and it definitely made me pause. What kind of students will be his classmates if the most competitive district in the state of MD (MCPS) has such lenient policies? At least in California, the top school districts are insanely competitive. Retakes? That would never happen at my child’s school.

They’re not for everyone, but as a California resident the UCs are a state treasure.

as someone who was educated in CA, had kids in young ES there, and then moved to MCPS, for the most part, MD public schools are better than CA public schools.

Yes, there is definitely grade inflation in MCPS, but they are trying to address that, including retakes, though my kid's school has never allowed unlimited retakes.

MCPS has some great magnet programs, too. It's partly why we moved out of the pricey Bay Area, because most public schools don't have gifted or magnet schools, thanks to budget cuts.

BTW, my kid with a 1580 SAT score, and all 5 on 12+ APs, is at UMD as a dual STEM major. There are many at UMD like my kid. Your kid will be fine.

But, agree, I do wish MD had the great public university choices that CA does, but MD is tiny compared to CA.

+1. These stats are a dime a dozen at UMD. They're a dime a dozen at my MD high school.

They aren't. See post above. 150 kids have 1510+ at UMD. Out of a class of ~5000.

[Anonymous]

For UMD it is fair to say that a 1550 scorer won't be the only one, but out of a class of 100 students, there might be only 2 or 3. If a CS class, maybe a few more.

At a college like CMU, more than likely the kid to your left is one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am California native and I support the UC's approach. Citizen/taxpayers of CA pay for the UCs and its mission is to educate the best and brightest Californians. They use "local context" to identify the top 9% from every Ca high school, including private schools, and guarantee admission to all of them, though don't guarantee which campus (Merced is the auto admit default). Yes that means that the top 9% from under resourced public schools too, so some of those kids have learning gaps and the UC's have support to help them.
Testing would not change this as they would still admit the top 9% by school including from those high schools that most on this board don't care about . . . .

Unfortunately, the best and the brightest can not be assumed to be evenly distributed throughout the state. It makes sense that kids in affluent and well educated communities end up better prepared by the end of K-12. Due to some
combination of heritable characteristics from educated/affluent parents (IQ is approx 50% heritable) and greater access over many years to better resources to develop that academic potential. Trying to make up for it at the college level is too late. This remediation work needs to be carried out starting from early elementary. At a certain age, the students’ absolute preparation level is more important than one’s undeveloped “potential” from a college success/job readiness standpoint.

[Anonymous]

also where do you think the “taxpayers” who are actually funding the UCs through their income taxes are clustered? That is also not evenly distributed as California has one of the most progressive income tax structures in the US. The high tax payers are paying extra to fund the UCs while their own kids are being disadvantaged in the UC admissions process due to policies favoring low income families due to “excellence in local context” admissions.

[Anonymous]

If you care about math education in Maryland and its effects on college readiness, this math professor’s recommendations are a must-read:

https://math.umd.edu/~jnd/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am California native and I support the UC's approach. Citizen/taxpayers of CA pay for the UCs and its mission is to educate the best and brightest Californians. They use "local context" to identify the top 9% from every Ca high school, including private schools, and guarantee admission to all of them, though don't guarantee which campus (Merced is the auto admit default). Yes that means that the top 9% from under resourced public schools too, so some of those kids have learning gaps and the UC's have support to help them.
Testing would not change this as they would still admit the top 9% by school including from those high schools that most on this board don't care about . . . .

Unfortunately, the best and the brightest can not be assumed to be evenly distributed throughout the state. It makes sense that kids in affluent and well educated communities end up better prepared by the end of K-12. Due to some
combination of heritable characteristics from educated/affluent parents (IQ is approx 50% heritable) and greater access over many years to better resources to develop that academic potential. Trying to make up for it at the college level is too late. This remediation work needs to be carried out starting from early elementary. At a certain age, the students’ absolute preparation level is more important than one’s undeveloped “potential” from a college success/job readiness standpoint.

Graduating in the top 9 percent of an awful, crime-ridden public school gets you serious grit and character points. And in life, grit and character matters a lot. I think California has it right. Sure, some of these kids from low performing schools with all the problems never got a chance to take Multivariable Calculus. But they would be absolute academic rock stars if only they grew up in a different neighborhood with better options. I think the UCs are fulfilling their mission just fine taking the best students from all the public schools, even the bad ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.newsweek.com/students-ucsd-without-8th-grade-math-skills-skyrockets-11030373

18% UC students placed below Algebra 1.

Among the students not meeting middle school math levels:
42% had taken precalculus or calculus. And 25% of these students had a math GPA of 4.0 in high school.


Takeaway is that you can't trust high school GPA.
4.0 in Calculus can't pass Algebra. Something is going on.

Bring back the tests. Require SATs. Submit all sets, so we admissions can see how many times a student takes the exam and all scoring.

Submit AP scores. Credit only 5s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am California native and I support the UC's approach. Citizen/taxpayers of CA pay for the UCs and its mission is to educate the best and brightest Californians. They use "local context" to identify the top 9% from every Ca high school, including private schools, and guarantee admission to all of them, though don't guarantee which campus (Merced is the auto admit default). Yes that means that the top 9% from under resourced public schools too, so some of those kids have learning gaps and the UC's have support to help them.
Testing would not change this as they would still admit the top 9% by school including from those high schools that most on this board don't care about . . . .

Unfortunately, the best and the brightest can not be assumed to be evenly distributed throughout the state. It makes sense that kids in affluent and well educated communities end up better prepared by the end of K-12. Due to some
combination of heritable characteristics from educated/affluent parents (IQ is approx 50% heritable) and greater access over many years to better resources to develop that academic potential. Trying to make up for it at the college level is too late. This remediation work needs to be carried out starting from early elementary. At a certain age, the students’ absolute preparation level is more important than one’s undeveloped “potential” from a college success/job readiness standpoint.

Graduating in the top 9 percent of an awful, crime-ridden public school gets you serious grit and character points. And in life, grit and character matters a lot. I think California has it right. Sure, some of these kids from low performing schools with all the problems never got a chance to take Multivariable Calculus. But they would be absolute academic rock stars if only they grew up in a different neighborhood with better options. I think the UCs are fulfilling their mission just fine taking the best students from all the public schools, even the bad ones.

Sorry, I will take smart any day.

[Anonymous]

Problem is they don’t remember it when they take it in 6-7 grades.