Why the push for accelerated math?

[Anonymous]

What they should do it place kids in grades based on knowledge and ability rather than age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid will take AP Lang, AP Lit, AP Seminar, and AP research. They also will have AP Government, AP European history, and AP USH. I’m not seeing a problem with doing multivariable also.

PP who wants to set up math tracks seems to think that kids who are perfectly capable of doing matrix multiplication (and mind you, matrix math underlies both modern communications and large language models aka AI) in high school should be stuck doing algebra based physics extensions because...reasons. PP has yet to answer the question "why limit acceleration."

Because the increasing levels of acceleration are creating a toxic environment that doesn't provide a significant benefit for the vast majority of kids.

It's a race to nowhere. There is very little value in accelerating beyond a year (or two on a limited basis).

I think some people have a hard time accepting that there are always going to be smarter kids and more nurturing families. And it is a social issue for them, not an educational one.

Acceleration isn’t meant to benefit the vast majority of kids. Acceleration is meant to benefit those who need it and currently it’s about 10-15% of kids.

Algebra in 7th is such a low bar too.

Education isnt a race to nowhere; it’s an endless journey, but some just walk faster.

Some acceleration is great. Having some calculus in HS is helpful.

10-15% is too large of a cohort for exceptionally gifted. It will include many bright kids who would have been just fine with algebra in 8th.

Limit the hyper acceleration to the truly gifted kids. There should be a very high bar for entry.

The unnecessary over-acceleration is the race to nowhere.

Nope. Exceptionally gifted do algebra in 6th currently. Algebra in 7th are just smart kids for the most part although I’m sure some could do it earlier.

This mild acceleration is completely necessary and hopefully will continue to provide opportunities to the kids who need it.

Lowering standards because some kids aren’t smart or some families fail to provide adequate support to their children is the wrong answer.

Let’s lift everyone to new heights.

[Anonymous]

Algebra 1 in 6th, Geometry in 7th, and Algebra in 8th, is gen-ed standard in most third world countries. What seems to be the problem here in FCPS? Let's blame it on pandemic, to cover up the underlying challenges that existed well before that.

"The 2022 National Assessment of Educational Progress found that, post-pandemic, 38 percent of 8th graders couldn’t meet the test’s lowest benchmark. In practice, that means that many of these students have trouble using division, for example, or plotting a point on a number line.

Experts have debated why, and though there’s little consensus on the reasons, some of the commonly cited ones include the rise of smartphones, changes in standards in the mid-2010s, ..."

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sharp-steep-declines-u-s-students-are-falling-behind-in-math-and-science/2024/12

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Algebra 1 in 6th, Geometry in 7th, and Algebra in 8th, is gen-ed standard in most third world countries. What seems to be the problem here in FCPS? Let's blame it on pandemic, to cover up the underlying challenges that existed well before that.

"The 2022 National Assessment of Educational Progress found that, post-pandemic, 38 percent of 8th graders couldn’t meet the test’s lowest benchmark. In practice, that means that many of these students have trouble using division, for example, or plotting a point on a number line.

Experts have debated why, and though there’s little consensus on the reasons, some of the commonly cited ones include the rise of smartphones, changes in standards in the mid-2010s, ..."

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sharp-steep-declines-u-s-students-are-falling-behind-in-math-and-science/2024/12

I'm not the PP arguing for limiting acceleration, but please prove the bolded. Just because 8th graders are failing NAEP doesn't mean the bolded, it just means we aren't teaching 8th grader's math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid will take AP Lang, AP Lit, AP Seminar, and AP research. They also will have AP Government, AP European history, and AP USH. I’m not seeing a problem with doing multivariable also.

PP who wants to set up math tracks seems to think that kids who are perfectly capable of doing matrix multiplication (and mind you, matrix math underlies both modern communications and large language models aka AI) in high school should be stuck doing algebra based physics extensions because...reasons. PP has yet to answer the question "why limit acceleration."

Because the increasing levels of acceleration are creating a toxic environment that doesn't provide a significant benefit for the vast majority of kids.

It's a race to nowhere. There is very little value in accelerating beyond a year (or two on a limited basis).

I think some people have a hard time accepting that there are always going to be smarter kids and more nurturing families. And it is a social issue for them, not an educational one.

Acceleration isn’t meant to benefit the vast majority of kids. Acceleration is meant to benefit those who need it and currently it’s about 10-15% of kids.

Algebra in 7th is such a low bar too.

Education isnt a race to nowhere; it’s an endless journey, but some just walk faster.

"More nurturing families?"

Wow.

Here's your head pat, PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid will take AP Lang, AP Lit, AP Seminar, and AP research. They also will have AP Government, AP European history, and AP USH. I’m not seeing a problem with doing multivariable also.

PP who wants to set up math tracks seems to think that kids who are perfectly capable of doing matrix multiplication (and mind you, matrix math underlies both modern communications and large language models aka AI) in high school should be stuck doing algebra based physics extensions because...reasons. PP has yet to answer the question "why limit acceleration."

Matrix multiplication is arithmetic. It's not even algebra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Algebra 1 in 6th, Geometry in 7th, and Algebra in 8th, is gen-ed standard in most third world countries. What seems to be the problem here in FCPS? Let's blame it on pandemic, to cover up the underlying challenges that existed well before that.

"The 2022 National Assessment of Educational Progress found that, post-pandemic, 38 percent of 8th graders couldn’t meet the test’s lowest benchmark. In practice, that means that many of these students have trouble using division, for example, or plotting a point on a number line.

Experts have debated why, and though there’s little consensus on the reasons, some of the commonly cited ones include the rise of smartphones, changes in standards in the mid-2010s, ..."

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sharp-steep-declines-u-s-students-are-falling-behind-in-math-and-science/2024/12

I'm not the PP arguing for limiting acceleration, but please prove the bolded. Just because 8th graders are failing NAEP doesn't mean the bolded, it just means we aren't teaching 8th grader's math.

Prove to who, and why? NAEP report is public and widely accepted. US is falling behind with middle schoolers spending time on tiktok and insta since math being taught is mediocre and boring.

[Anonymous]

My kid did the accelerated route and is opting to take statistics instead of calculus and then no math senior year. They are leaning towards taking a new language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid will take AP Lang, AP Lit, AP Seminar, and AP research. They also will have AP Government, AP European history, and AP USH. I’m not seeing a problem with doing multivariable also.

PP who wants to set up math tracks seems to think that kids who are perfectly capable of doing matrix multiplication (and mind you, matrix math underlies both modern communications and large language models aka AI) in high school should be stuck doing algebra based physics extensions because...reasons. PP has yet to answer the question "why limit acceleration."

Because the increasing levels of acceleration are creating a toxic environment that doesn't provide a significant benefit for the vast majority of kids.

It's a race to nowhere. There is very little value in accelerating beyond a year (or two on a limited basis).

I think some people have a hard time accepting that there are always going to be smarter kids and more nurturing families. And it is a social issue for them, not an educational one.

Acceleration isn’t meant to benefit the vast majority of kids. Acceleration is meant to benefit those who need it and currently it’s about 10-15% of kids.

Algebra in 7th is such a low bar too.

Education isnt a race to nowhere; it’s an endless journey, but some just walk faster.

Some acceleration is great. Having some calculus in HS is helpful.

10-15% is too large of a cohort for exceptionally gifted. It will include many bright kids who would have been just fine with algebra in 8th.

Limit the hyper acceleration to the truly gifted kids. There should be a very high bar for entry.

The unnecessary over-acceleration is the race to nowhere.

You don't think that there are kids that are just stronger in math and can handle the acceleration? DS is far stronger in math then in LA. He could be stronger in LA but he doesn't have the same desire to read and write as he does to work on math. He asks to participate in math competitions and take math competition classes. He has been strong enough that he has been invited to participate on specific teams for specific competitions.

Algebra i in 7th grade is acceleeration but I don't see it as hyper acceleration. He could have handled Algebra 1 in 6th grade but was at a school that was not supportive of additional acceleration. We didn't want him to have to get up and take the bus to MS for math first thing in the morning, so we didn't push the matter.

I don't think he is gifted or a genius. All of his test scores are in the 99th percentile. He is smart and he is capable, and we expect him to make his best effort in school. If he does that he will do well in all of his classes, not just math, but math is 100% his academic passion. And that is fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Algebra 1 in 6th, Geometry in 7th, and Algebra in 8th, is gen-ed standard in most third world countries. What seems to be the problem here in FCPS? Let's blame it on pandemic, to cover up the underlying challenges that existed well before that.

"The 2022 National Assessment of Educational Progress found that, post-pandemic, 38 percent of 8th graders couldn’t meet the test’s lowest benchmark. In practice, that means that many of these students have trouble using division, for example, or plotting a point on a number line.

Experts have debated why, and though there’s little consensus on the reasons, some of the commonly cited ones include the rise of smartphones, changes in standards in the mid-2010s, ..."

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sharp-steep-declines-u-s-students-are-falling-behind-in-math-and-science/2024/12

I'm not the PP arguing for limiting acceleration, but please prove the bolded. Just because 8th graders are failing NAEP doesn't mean the bolded, it just means we aren't teaching 8th grader's math.

Prove to who, and why? NAEP report is public and widely accepted. US is falling behind with middle schoolers spending time on tiktok and insta since math being taught is mediocre and boring.

We need more math homework, and it needs to count.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like I'm taking crazy pills and I'm not sure if I'm just caught up in the Northern Virginia mindset.

Our child scored well on both the Iowa and the SOL and their teacher recommends they take out for one next year in seventh grade. I'm sitting here wondering why?

I completely understand why it's beneficial for some maybe even the majority of kids to take calculus in their senior year. But how many kids are really going to benefit from taking 2 years of calculus?

So I guess my question is what's the point? Aside for taking an extra year of college math in high school, why do it?

So far I come up with it. Might look better on college applications, make college classes either easier or something you can get credit for while in HS.

I have this underlying fear that they are going to push anyone who scores well into algebra 1, so there are less kids in 7th grade honors. That allows for smaller classes and helps with the goal of Algebra for all by grade 8

Yes, it’s the race to no where. Many students take Calculus 1 at universities—it’s still taught there.

+1

IMO, anything beyond 1 year of acceleration (AKA algebra in 8th) should have a high bar of entry.

It did. You used to ahve to pass the SOL advanced and be in the 91st percentile on the IAAT to be considered for Algebra in 7th grade. This year they lowered the bar to passing advanced on the SOL only. That said, that still leaves a little more than 2,100 students eligible for Algebra in 7th grade, based on the last three school years SOL results. That is under half of the kids taking Advanced Math or in AAP. So about 10% of the 7th grade class is eligible to take Algebra. Given that the kids who do take Algebra in 7th grade all pass the SOL with a high percentage passing advanced, I would say that they have found a reasonable bar for entry.

Still way too many kids. It should be extremely rare. Or not offered at all.

Why are you so invested in holding back other people’s kids? So many kids thrive on the calculus in 11th or even in 20th grade path.

I’m not “invested”; we are all just throwing out opinions here.

Children would benefit from cutting off the arms race of math acceleration. Pick a reasonable amount of math to take before college and offer that. Otherwise we end up with the race to nowhere.

I’d say 1 year of calculus in HS is a good breaking point. Maybe 2 for truly exceptional kids.

Would children benefit from having their reading materials restricted to 2 years above grade level? If not, then why restrict math advancement? Why is math an “arms race,” when no one views English, music, and sports advancement as problematic?

One of my kids took AP Calc BC in 11th. One took it in 9th. Neither had any problems. Both were in exactly the correct level for them. Why should my kids be bored for a year or more just to make other kids look better?

Kids aren’t accelerating in English, science, etc by 2+ years.

Of course they are. AP Lang and Lit. AP Chem, Physics, and Bio.

So one year of "acceleration". That's reasonable.

AP classes are supposed to be intro level College classes, that is more than one year of acceleration. And there are multiple AP classes in each field, meaning that many kids are knocking out freshman year of college while in HS. What is the difference between a kid taking AP US History and AP world History and a kid taking AP Calc BS and Multivariate Calculus? Both are college level math classes, one is taught as DE.

Kids take AP World History instead of regular HS-level world history. They aren't really jumping ahead at all; they are swapping out one class for more advanced material.

Some amount of acceleration is great, but it has turned into a race to nowhere. Kids are racing through material without deep understanding. We should push for more challenging content and offer more enrichment activities instead of racing through concepts. Deeper instead of faster.

More advanced material is the definition of jumping ahead.

Taking AP World History isn't jumping ahead in course scheduling. HSs aren't offering increasingly accelerated history classes.

9th graders can take AP Human Geo, how is that not a 9th grader taking a class 4 years ahead? 9th graders can also take AP Computer Science A, how is that not a 9th grader taking a class 4 years ahead?

Because those are overpriced high school classes, not university level classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Algebra 1 in 6th, Geometry in 7th, and Algebra in 8th, is gen-ed standard in most third world countries. What seems to be the problem here in FCPS? Let's blame it on pandemic, to cover up the underlying challenges that existed well before that.

"The 2022 National Assessment of Educational Progress found that, post-pandemic, 38 percent of 8th graders couldn’t meet the test’s lowest benchmark. In practice, that means that many of these students have trouble using division, for example, or plotting a point on a number line.

Experts have debated why, and though there’s little consensus on the reasons, some of the commonly cited ones include the rise of smartphones, changes in standards in the mid-2010s, ..."

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/sharp-steep-declines-u-s-students-are-falling-behind-in-math-and-science/2024/12

I'm not the PP arguing for limiting acceleration, but please prove the bolded. Just because 8th graders are failing NAEP doesn't mean the bolded, it just means we aren't teaching 8th grader's math.

Prove to who, and why? NAEP report is public and widely accepted. US is falling behind with middle schoolers spending time on tiktok and insta since math being taught is mediocre and boring.

Provide data showing that taking Algebra 1 in 6th grade (!) is a standard, general education track in "most third world countries" as stated above.

NAEP data doesn't prove that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid will take AP Lang, AP Lit, AP Seminar, and AP research. They also will have AP Government, AP European history, and AP USH. I’m not seeing a problem with doing multivariable also.

PP who wants to set up math tracks seems to think that kids who are perfectly capable of doing matrix multiplication (and mind you, matrix math underlies both modern communications and large language models aka AI) in high school should be stuck doing algebra based physics extensions because...reasons. PP has yet to answer the question "why limit acceleration."

Because the increasing levels of acceleration are creating a toxic environment that doesn't provide a significant benefit for the vast majority of kids.

It's a race to nowhere. There is very little value in accelerating beyond a year (or two on a limited basis).

I think some people have a hard time accepting that there are always going to be smarter kids and more nurturing families. And it is a social issue for them, not an educational one.

Acceleration isn’t meant to benefit the vast majority of kids. Acceleration is meant to benefit those who need it and currently it’s about 10-15% of kids.

Algebra in 7th is such a low bar too.

Education isnt a race to nowhere; it’s an endless journey, but some just walk faster.

Some acceleration is great. Having some calculus in HS is helpful.

10-15% is too large of a cohort for exceptionally gifted. It will include many bright kids who would have been just fine with algebra in 8th.

Limit the hyper acceleration to the truly gifted kids. There should be a very high bar for entry.

The unnecessary over-acceleration is the race to nowhere.

Kids don’t need to be exceptionally gifted to handle algebra in 7th. The exceptionally gifted kids are taking algebra in 4th or even earlier.

Overaccelerating kids can be bad. But holding kids back and turning math into a tedious slog is also bad. The right track for a kid depends on the kid’s natural aptitude, interest, and personality. That’s best decided by the kids, parents, and teachers, rather than some internet rando who just doesn’t like math acceleration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like I'm taking crazy pills and I'm not sure if I'm just caught up in the Northern Virginia mindset.

Our child scored well on both the Iowa and the SOL and their teacher recommends they take out for one next year in seventh grade. I'm sitting here wondering why?

I completely understand why it's beneficial for some maybe even the majority of kids to take calculus in their senior year. But how many kids are really going to benefit from taking 2 years of calculus?

So I guess my question is what's the point? Aside for taking an extra year of college math in high school, why do it?

So far I come up with it. Might look better on college applications, make college classes either easier or something you can get credit for while in HS.

I have this underlying fear that they are going to push anyone who scores well into algebra 1, so there are less kids in 7th grade honors. That allows for smaller classes and helps with the goal of Algebra for all by grade 8

Yes, it’s the race to no where. Many students take Calculus 1 at universities—it’s still taught there.

+1

IMO, anything beyond 1 year of acceleration (AKA algebra in 8th) should have a high bar of entry.

It did. You used to ahve to pass the SOL advanced and be in the 91st percentile on the IAAT to be considered for Algebra in 7th grade. This year they lowered the bar to passing advanced on the SOL only. That said, that still leaves a little more than 2,100 students eligible for Algebra in 7th grade, based on the last three school years SOL results. That is under half of the kids taking Advanced Math or in AAP. So about 10% of the 7th grade class is eligible to take Algebra. Given that the kids who do take Algebra in 7th grade all pass the SOL with a high percentage passing advanced, I would say that they have found a reasonable bar for entry.

Still way too many kids. It should be extremely rare. Or not offered at all.

Why are you so invested in holding back other people’s kids? So many kids thrive on the calculus in 11th or even in 20th grade path.

I’m not “invested”; we are all just throwing out opinions here.

Children would benefit from cutting off the arms race of math acceleration. Pick a reasonable amount of math to take before college and offer that. Otherwise we end up with the race to nowhere.

I’d say 1 year of calculus in HS is a good breaking point. Maybe 2 for truly exceptional kids.

Would children benefit from having their reading materials restricted to 2 years above grade level? If not, then why restrict math advancement? Why is math an “arms race,” when no one views English, music, and sports advancement as problematic?

One of my kids took AP Calc BC in 11th. One took it in 9th. Neither had any problems. Both were in exactly the correct level for them. Why should my kids be bored for a year or more just to make other kids look better?

Kids aren’t accelerating in English, science, etc by 2+ years.

Of course they are. AP Lang and Lit. AP Chem, Physics, and Bio.

So one year of "acceleration". That's reasonable.

Sure, people like you who can't count to 2 probably shouldn't look accelerate in math.

[Anonymous]

I completely agree with you. One calculus class is fine in high school, especially if your kid is not looking to go into a STEM field.