TJ 1.5% accepted?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:THE COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”

SCOTUS left ruling in place:
https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/



THE DATA BACKS THIS UP:
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

Asian students still make up the majority of students.

And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25)
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%


LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf

page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."

That opinion precedes SFFA and the denial of cert had a dissent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?

The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.

If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.

But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?

That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.

+1

The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.

Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.

Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.

Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.

I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.

I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.

There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.

as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?

DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.

It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.

Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.

you have a cite for this?

There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.

Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.

The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.

This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.

The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.

And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.

Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.

The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.

DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.

TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.

Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f3476daf-2f3a-478e-9e4a-0f297817f6fc/2024-2025%20Curie%20Academic%20Year%20Schedule%20(10.20..pdf

The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.

No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.

Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:THE COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”

SCOTUS left ruling in place:
https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/



THE DATA BACKS THIS UP:
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

Asian students still make up the majority of students.

And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25)
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%


LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf

page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."

That opinion precedes SFFA and the denial of cert had a dissent.

Dissents from corrupt judges are worthless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?

The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.

If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.

But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?

That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.

+1

The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.

Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.

Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.

Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.

I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.

I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.

There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.

as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?

DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.

It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.

Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.

you have a cite for this?

There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.

Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.

The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.

This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.

The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.

And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.

Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.

The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.

DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.

TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.

Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f3476daf-2f3a-478e-9e4a-0f297817f6fc/2024-2025%20Curie%20Academic%20Year%20Schedule%20(10.20..pdf

The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.

No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.

Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.

There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.

1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:THE COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”

SCOTUS left ruling in place:
https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/



THE DATA BACKS THIS UP:
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

Asian students still make up the majority of students.

And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25)
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%


LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf

page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."

That opinion precedes SFFA and the denial of cert had a dissent.

Dissents from corrupt judges are worthless.

Alito is corrupt? How so?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?

The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.

If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.

But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?

That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.

+1

The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.

Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.

Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.

Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.

I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.

I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.

There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.

as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?

DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.

It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.

Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.

you have a cite for this?

There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.

Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.

The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.

This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.

The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.

And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.

Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.

The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.

DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.

TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.

Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f3476daf-2f3a-478e-9e4a-0f297817f6fc/2024-2025%20Curie%20Academic%20Year%20Schedule%20(10.20..pdf

The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.

No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.

Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.

There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.

1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.

If wealth were the pathway to TJ then TJ would be majority white. Clearly there is something other than wealth at play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:THE COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”

SCOTUS left ruling in place:
https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/



THE DATA BACKS THIS UP:
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

Asian students still make up the majority of students.

And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25)
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%


LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf

page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."

That opinion precedes SFFA and the denial of cert had a dissent.

The question comes down to whether a racially discriminatory intent invalidates otherwise facially neutral government action if there is some other legitimate rationale for the government action.

For example, if a state implemented voter id laws and the pay pudding the voter id law indicates that they expect the law to reduce black voter participation, does the rationale that vote I'd laws promote faith in elections provide override the otherwise racially discriminatory intent behind the facially neutral law?

Another example is literacy tests and poll taxes that are facially neutral but racially motivated.

Both poll taxes and literacy tests were racially motivated and racially neutral. And while pool taxes were eventually ruled to violate the 14th amendment, literacy tests required the voting rights act to outlaw.

The supreme Court is probably not eager to use TJ as the test case for new law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:THE COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”

SCOTUS left ruling in place:
https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/



THE DATA BACKS THIS UP:
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

Asian students still make up the majority of students.

And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25)
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%


LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf

page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."

That opinion precedes SFFA and the denial of cert had a dissent.

The question comes down to whether a racially discriminatory intent invalidates otherwise facially neutral government action if there is some other legitimate rationale for the government action.

For example, if a state implemented voter id laws and the party promoting the voter id law indicates that they want the law to reduce black voter participation, does the rationale that vote I'd laws promote faith in elections provide override the otherwise racially discriminatory intent behind the facially neutral law?

Another example is literacy tests and poll taxes that are facially neutral but racially motivated.

Both poll taxes and literacy tests were racially motivated and racially neutral. And while poll taxes were eventually ruled to violate the 14th amendment, literacy tests required the voting rights act to outlaw.

The Supreme Court is probably not eager to use TJ as the test case for new law.

Fixed typos

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?

The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.

If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.

But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?

That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.

+1

The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.

Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.

Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.

Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.

I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.

I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.

There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.

as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?

DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.

It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.

Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.

you have a cite for this?

There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.

Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.

The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.

This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.

The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.

And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.

Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.

The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.

DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.

TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.

Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f3476daf-2f3a-478e-9e4a-0f297817f6fc/2024-2025%20Curie%20Academic%20Year%20Schedule%20(10.20..pdf

The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.

No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.

Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.

There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.

1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.

If wealth were the pathway to TJ then TJ would be majority white. Clearly there is something other than wealth at play.

Certainly. Yes, wealthy white families know that TJ will be a grind and decrease their kids’ chances at top colleges.

That’s why a lower % of eligible white kids apply and why many don’t attend even after being accepted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:THE COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”

SCOTUS left ruling in place:
https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/



THE DATA BACKS THIS UP:
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

Asian students still make up the majority of students.

And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25)
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%


LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf

page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."

That opinion precedes SFFA and the denial of cert had a dissent.

Dissents from corrupt judges are worthless.

Alito is corrupt? How so?

GMAFB. Intellectually dishonest response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?

The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.

If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.

But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?

That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.

+1

The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.

Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.

Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.

Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.

I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.

I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.

There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.

as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?

DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.

It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.

Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.

you have a cite for this?

There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.

Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.

The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.

This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.

The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.

And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.

Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.

The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.

DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.

TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.

Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f3476daf-2f3a-478e-9e4a-0f297817f6fc/2024-2025%20Curie%20Academic%20Year%20Schedule%20(10.20..pdf

The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.

No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.

Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.

There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.

1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.

“Wealth” is a red herring. URMs can’t compete academically with regular non-wealthy non-URM kids. Without experience factors and no rich kids, the admissions would probably be the same as the previous system. The real problem is URM performance, not rich kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?

The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.

If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.

But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?

That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.

+1

The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.

Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.

Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.

Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.

I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.

I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.

There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.

as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?

DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.

It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.

Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.

you have a cite for this?

There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.

Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.

The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.

This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.

The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.

And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.

Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.

The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.

DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.

TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.

Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f3476daf-2f3a-478e-9e4a-0f297817f6fc/2024-2025%20Curie%20Academic%20Year%20Schedule%20(10.20..pdf

The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.

No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.

Unless the plan is to make every family have the same level of wealth, the same intelligence level, the same desire for their children to succeed academically, and also make all of the students have the same willingness to put in the work towards education there will never be a way to strip students of their privilege. It is 100% impossible to do any of that.

The only “option” the school board could find was to give (mostly) unqualified students an advantage of “bonus points”. It is clear that the students accepted to TJ under the quota from middle schools or with bonus points are not the same caliber of students that would be admitted without those racially motivated advantages. Students entering TJ shouldn’t fail math classes (or any classes!). TJ shouldn't be a struggle for students, it should be a place where they can flourish and further their stem education.

It should 100% be required that students pass advance their math SOLs in middle school to qualify. There is no excuse that a student that “should be” qualified for TJ to not receive a pass advanced score. Students who can’t even pass advance aren’t going to fair well at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?

The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.

If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.

But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?

That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.

+1

The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.

Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.

Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.

Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.

I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.

I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.

There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.

as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?

DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.

It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.

Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.

you have a cite for this?

There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.

Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.

The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.

This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.

The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.

And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.

Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.

The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.

DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.

TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.

Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f3476daf-2f3a-478e-9e4a-0f297817f6fc/2024-2025%20Curie%20Academic%20Year%20Schedule%20(10.20..pdf

The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.

No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.

Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.

There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.

1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.

“Wealth” is a red herring. URMs can’t compete academically with regular non-wealthy non-URM kids. Without experience factors and no rich kids, the admissions would probably be the same as the previous system. The real problem is URM performance, not rich kids.

Bonus points are not equivalent to intelligence and aptitude for stem. They do help slightly with the race percentages at TJ…..the only reason they were implemented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?

The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.

If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.

But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?

That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.

+1

The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.

Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.

Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.

Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.

I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.

I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.

There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.

as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?

DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.

It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.

Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.

you have a cite for this?

There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.

Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.

The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.

This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.

The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.

And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.

Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.

The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.

DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.

TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.

Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f3476daf-2f3a-478e-9e4a-0f297817f6fc/2024-2025%20Curie%20Academic%20Year%20Schedule%20(10.20..pdf

The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.

No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.

Unless the plan is to make every family have the same level of wealth, the same intelligence level, the same desire for their children to succeed academically, and also make all of the students have the same willingness to put in the work towards education there will never be a way to strip students of their privilege. It is 100% impossible to do any of that.

The only “option” the school board could find was to give (mostly) unqualified students an advantage of “bonus points”. It is clear that the students accepted to TJ under the quota from middle schools or with bonus points are not the same caliber of students that would be admitted without those racially motivated advantages. Students entering TJ shouldn’t fail math classes (or any classes!). TJ shouldn't be a struggle for students, it should be a place where they can flourish and further their stem education.

It should 100% be required that students pass advance their math SOLs in middle school to qualify. There is no excuse that a student that “should be” qualified for TJ to not receive a pass advanced score. Students who can’t even pass advance aren’t going to fair well at TJ.

We will never be able to fully level the playing field for all kids. But we can certainly remove barriers that exclude huge portions of our community.

I think it's fair to have students meet some minimal qualifications - like passing SOLs - but TJ teachers have been complaining about performance in math for a long time, way before this admissions change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?

The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.

If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.

But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?

That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.

+1

The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.

Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.

Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.

Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.

I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.

I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.

There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.

as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?

DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.

It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.

Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.

you have a cite for this?

There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.

Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.

The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.

This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.

The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.

And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.

Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.

The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.

DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.

TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.

Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/f3476daf-2f3a-478e-9e4a-0f297817f6fc/2024-2025%20Curie%20Academic%20Year%20Schedule%20(10.20..pdf

The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.

No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.

Unless the plan is to make every family have the same level of wealth, the same intelligence level, the same desire for their children to succeed academically, and also make all of the students have the same willingness to put in the work towards education there will never be a way to strip students of their privilege. It is 100% impossible to do any of that.

The only “option” the school board could find was to give (mostly) unqualified students an advantage of “bonus points”. It is clear that the students accepted to TJ under the quota from middle schools or with bonus points are not the same caliber of students that would be admitted without those racially motivated advantages. Students entering TJ shouldn’t fail math classes (or any classes!). TJ shouldn't be a struggle for students, it should be a place where they can flourish and further their stem education.

It should 100% be required that students pass advance their math SOLs in middle school to qualify. There is no excuse that a student that “should be” qualified for TJ to not receive a pass advanced score. Students who can’t even pass advance aren’t going to fair well at TJ.

We will never be able to fully level the playing field for all kids. But we can certainly remove barriers that exclude huge portions of our community.

I think it's fair to have students meet some minimal qualifications - like passing SOLs - but TJ teachers have been complaining about performance in math for a long time, way before this admissions change.

If math performance has been a problem for years the admissions standards should have been increased instead of decreased. They can keep the essays, just make 4 be math PSEs and 1 SPS. Final grades in 8th grade math should be reviewed. Students should require at least an A- in math. If they can’t get an A in a low level math class it will only go downhill at the higher levels.

Another way to test the students would be to create a new kind math test every year. They don’t have to use the same kind of math test every year. Don’t tell anyone what the test will be like and nobody can prepare in advance other than studying math (which is not prepping). Don’t give any multiple choice questions so that students have to show their work. I don’t think it would be that hard for the principal to make a test every year that is completely different.

Or use a standard type of school and offer online prep for all students. Weekly study sessions for the students to prepare.