APS - Symphonic Band marching band requirement

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My high school had the same requirement, and it’s clear that the only reason it was mandatory was that If they had made it voluntary no one would have done it. People defending the policy need to ask themselves why, if marching band is such a valuable experience, it has to be a compulsory requirement attached to something only tangentially related. Kids taking AP English aren’t required to write for the school paper, and as others have said, you can take a theater class without having to be in the school play.

There’s only three questions here that matter: 1) what makes marching band such a uniquely valuable experience that it must be mandatory? 2) if it’s such a uniquely valuable experience, wouldn’t compulsion be unnecessary? 3) Do you think it makes the marching band better or worse to have it filled with people who don’t actually want to be there?

Judging by the sizes of the bands in Arlington, I don't think they're full of kids who don't want to be in them. The YHS and WL bands have shrunk significantly the past few years. Meanwhile, WHS' marching band has grown to be the largest.
Yorktown has what - 70ish?
WL - the largest high school in Arlington - about the same or less?
Wakefield has about 100. Not all of them are in symphonic band, and one is even on the football team.

For bands and orchestras, at all levels, locally and across the country, it's hard to overstate the negative impact of the pandemic.

But why does Wakefield buck the trend with expanded membership?
And why is COVID the supposed cause? Are all other sports and activities proportionately down?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

[Anonymous]

Your kid can't do everything, OP. She had to pick one. Orchestra or band. Marching band directors need every single student to participate. If the director starts excusing one student for reasons, then he or she has to start excusing other students for their reasons, and the marching band dwindles to nothing.

If your kid wants to do orchestra, then do that but don't try to change the rules that apply to everyone in the band for good reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your kid can't do everything, OP. She had to pick one. Orchestra or band. Marching band directors need every single student to participate. If the director starts excusing one student for reasons, then he or she has to start excusing other students for their reasons, and the marching band dwindles to nothing.

If your kid wants to do orchestra, then do that but don't try to change the rules that apply to everyone in the band for good reasons.

What's the problem with that? If kids don't want to do it, then why force it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

I'm also from a music-rich area of the Northeast.

It's weird, but it seems like music just isn't a thing around here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your kid can't do everything, OP. She had to pick one. Orchestra or band. Marching band directors need every single student to participate. If the director starts excusing one student for reasons, then he or she has to start excusing other students for their reasons, and the marching band dwindles to nothing.

If your kid wants to do orchestra, then do that but don't try to change the rules that apply to everyone in the band for good reasons.

What's the problem with that? If kids don't want to do it, then why force it?

It's a problem for the students who want to do it and it's a problem for the school - the marching band is a positive force for the entire school, during parades and at football games and some assemblies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My high school had the same requirement, and it’s clear that the only reason it was mandatory was that If they had made it voluntary no one would have done it. People defending the policy need to ask themselves why, if marching band is such a valuable experience, it has to be a compulsory requirement attached to something only tangentially related. Kids taking AP English aren’t required to write for the school paper, and as others have said, you can take a theater class without having to be in the school play.

There’s only three questions here that matter: 1) what makes marching band such a uniquely valuable experience that it must be mandatory? 2) if it’s such a uniquely valuable experience, wouldn’t compulsion be unnecessary? 3) Do you think it makes the marching band better or worse to have it filled with people who don’t actually want to be there?

Unique:
It isn't mandatory. It is only mandatory if you enroll in symphonic band. You don't have to sign-up for symphonic band. Just like you don't have to sign-up for AP Calculus or AP Lit.
Again, it is for academic credit; so the other comparisons people keep making are not the same. You enroll in "Marching band." You don't enroll in track and field.
Marching band significantly improves skills beyond what you get in just a band class. So it benefits the concert bands in turn.

Compulsion unnecessary:
Most team activities are unique and students' experiences in them unique. But society/culture here apparently values those things more and bills them as fun. Whereas people look at the requirements for marching band and only think "work, effort, time." (It's only for the first quarter, folks - probably the easiest time of year to have a time-consuming activity beyond the school day).

Compulsion clearly isn't necessary in college - all those big bands at the football games are not draftees. So clearly there is interest. Interest which is developed before going to college, developed mainly from high school programs that encourage it.

Better or worse:
Marching band is NOT filled with people who don't want to be there. The majority of those who don't want to be there - aren't. They don't do band. They stay in concert band. They quit. But the people who stay, even if they aren't the most enthusiastic, are better for it.

This is the issue. There are musicians who are not part of advanced band at W-L because of this requirement. My kid does a fall sport and an instrument and had to pick between the two.

It sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your kid can't do everything, OP. She had to pick one. Orchestra or band. Marching band directors need every single student to participate. If the director starts excusing one student for reasons, then he or she has to start excusing other students for their reasons, and the marching band dwindles to nothing.

If your kid wants to do orchestra, then do that but don't try to change the rules that apply to everyone in the band for good reasons.

Op here I was just asking to find out if there was special flexibility given for documented other music commitments. Sounds like probably not and DC was lukewarm on doing band at school anyway since she strongly prefers playing with an orchestra so she will just stick to that. No big deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your kid can't do everything, OP. She had to pick one. Orchestra or band. Marching band directors need every single student to participate. If the director starts excusing one student for reasons, then he or she has to start excusing other students for their reasons, and the marching band dwindles to nothing.

If your kid wants to do orchestra, then do that but don't try to change the rules that apply to everyone in the band for good reasons.

What's the problem with that? If kids don't want to do it, then why force it?

It's a problem for the students who want to do it and it's a problem for the school - the marching band is a positive force for the entire school, during parades and at football games and some assemblies.

The solution isn't forcing kids to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your kid can't do everything, OP. She had to pick one. Orchestra or band. Marching band directors need every single student to participate. If the director starts excusing one student for reasons, then he or she has to start excusing other students for their reasons, and the marching band dwindles to nothing.

If your kid wants to do orchestra, then do that but don't try to change the rules that apply to everyone in the band for good reasons.

What's the problem with that? If kids don't want to do it, then why force it?

It's a problem for the students who want to do it and it's a problem for the school - the marching band is a positive force for the entire school, during parades and at football games and some assemblies.

I see we've abandoned the bailey and retreated to the motte. So your position is basically that you don't care about the preferences of the kids who don't want to do it, you aren't interested in why they don't want to do it (they might have good reasons...), you just want the school to have the marching band.

So you'll find something that kids actually want to do (symphonic band) and then tell them they can't do it unless they also commit a ton of time and effort to something else in addition. And if they quit, you'll claim it was their free choice all along.

I think (I hope) we are all adults here. I'm trying to think of any other field of life where the average adult would find this line of reasoning acceptable as applied to themselves.

No one is arguing with the right of parents to tell their kids what to do, nor is anyone saying that classes like band or orchestra don't necessarily entail a commitment of time outside of school hours (concerts and rehearsals and whatnot). We are taking issue with the idea of taking something that kids want to do (symphonic band), and then telling them they can't do that unless they also participate in something that, by all accounts, many of them do not want to do (marching band). Something superficially similar but actually quite different and with a much greater time commitment, for no reason other than you like the aesthetics of a high school marching band.

What really kills me is that if we made it voluntary we would have a core of enthusiastic participants that could form the basis for a really good, effective program. And if that program was having trouble recruiting more people, they could make adjustments to how they manage it that would help to attract more participants. But the reason the "make it mandatory" crowd don't seem to want to take that approach is because they view the kids in the marching band as a means to an end (the prestige of having a marching band) and not an end in themselves (growing kids who could benefit from a group activity that is well-managed and enjoyable on its own terms).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

[Anonymous]

I assume they at least have flexibility for Jewish families who don't want there kids tied up for a lot of Friday nights and Saturdays. You don't have to be that religious to not want your kid to miss most Shabbat dinners for 10 weeks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your kid can't do everything, OP. She had to pick one. Orchestra or band. Marching band directors need every single student to participate. If the director starts excusing one student for reasons, then he or she has to start excusing other students for their reasons, and the marching band dwindles to nothing.

If your kid wants to do orchestra, then do that but don't try to change the rules that apply to everyone in the band for good reasons.

What's the problem with that? If kids don't want to do it, then why force it?

It's a problem for the students who want to do it and it's a problem for the school - the marching band is a positive force for the entire school, during parades and at football games and some assemblies.

I see we've abandoned the bailey and retreated to the motte. So your position is basically that you don't care about the preferences of the kids who don't want to do it, you aren't interested in why they don't want to do it (they might have good reasons...), you just want the school to have the marching band.

So you'll find something that kids actually want to do (symphonic band) and then tell them they can't do it unless they also commit a ton of time and effort to something else in addition. And if they quit, you'll claim it was their free choice all along.

I think (I hope) we are all adults here. I'm trying to think of any other field of life where the average adult would find this line of reasoning acceptable as applied to themselves.

No one is arguing with the right of parents to tell their kids what to do, nor is anyone saying that classes like band or orchestra don't necessarily entail a commitment of time outside of school hours (concerts and rehearsals and whatnot). We are taking issue with the idea of taking something that kids want to do (symphonic band), and then telling them they can't do that unless they also participate in something that, by all accounts, many of them do not want to do (marching band). Something superficially similar but actually quite different and with a much greater time commitment, for no reason other than you like the aesthetics of a high school marching band.

What really kills me is that if we made it voluntary we would have a core of enthusiastic participants that could form the basis for a really good, effective program. And if that program was having trouble recruiting more people, they could make adjustments to how they manage it that would help to attract more participants. But the reason the "make it mandatory" crowd don't seem to want to take that approach is because they view the kids in the marching band as a means to an end (the prestige of having a marching band) and not an end in themselves (growing kids who could benefit from a group activity that is well-managed and enjoyable on its own terms).

This isn't a debate; you aren't winning. That's a different class.

Requiring marching band is what schools committed to marching band do. Those who don't have small not-very-good not-very-fun marching bands. That's how it is. (And yes, marching band is an end in itself. Kids however, view only themselves and don't realize this in 8th grade. As do parents nowadays.)

Band and a full orchestra are two different things, fwiw. They play different music, serve different purposes. In some cases have different instruments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.