Rant about Deal and their religious field trip

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You atheists don’t get to make the rules for places of worship.

You see not so smart. Kind of like the poster child for why religion and zealotry make people dumb. OP's post was not about whether places of worship can have their own rules or whether they should change their rules for OP. It was about her annoyance with the school putting her in the position of having to choose between compliance with oppressive religious regimes (yeah, I said it) and excluding her daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m also an atheist. You should let your 6th grader decide. She is not being excluded, you are the one excluding her. So you should have the wherewithal to explain why you have decided she is not allowed to do this, and what is the super important principle that is at stake.

OP here. Of course I have explained to them my rationale; and, honestly, I'm still making up my mind around this issue. And I know I'm excluding her because of an idea the school had. My rant was because I feel icky about the school's idea of this field trip.

Idk OP this is some weirdly tinged intolerance feigned as "atheism". I'm an atheist teacher whose students participate in the Embassy Adoption program. We've gone to a Buddhist temple and worn the appropriate clothing. We've had Islamic States and worn their clothes, we've had Israel and worn their clothes. Exploring cultures is not something to feel icky about. It's a learning experience not religious immersion

Please tell me you aren't actually a teacher. "Israel" is not a religion you dolt. You are confusing Israeli with Jewish. You also make an offensive false equivalence between Islamic state theocracies and a Israel, which is a democracy.

[Anonymous]

I’m an atheist and a woman and I’ve visited mosques and Muslim countries and I’ve covered my head there. Do I think it’s a tradition with troubling gender implications? Yes. Do I understand that part of having the privilege to visit and learn about cultures outside my own is by respecting their cultural traditions while im there? Also yes.

This would be a prompt for a conversation with my daughter about gender and religion, but I would never refuse to let her go just because she had to wear long pants and put a scarf over her hair while there. It’s a couple hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you go to someone’s home, you respect their customs such as shoe wearing or not. When you enter a public building you respect cultural norms such as wearing a shirt. Why make such a big deal about respecting the customs of a mosque?

It’s not your culture. You aren’t some enlightened feminist because you refuse to let your daughter show respect to another culture and cover her hair for an hour. Do you actually know any Muslim women who cover their hair and how they feel about it? To presume it’s bad, backwards, anti-feminist, etc. is just centering yourself and your culture.

I think you are missing the whole point of the class and the field trips.

You do realize that there's a difference between being invited into someone's home and doing something required as part of a public-school-sponsored activity, right?

You do realize the school is not forcing any child to go on the field trip?

Everyone read the PP at 23:42. Think about what being an educated global citizen actually means and how we can teach kids to be one.

SMH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you go to someone’s home, you respect their customs such as shoe wearing or not. When you enter a public building you respect cultural norms such as wearing a shirt. Why make such a big deal about respecting the customs of a mosque?

It’s not your culture. You aren’t some enlightened feminist because you refuse to let your daughter show respect to another culture and cover her hair for an hour. Do you actually know any Muslim women who cover their hair and how they feel about it? To presume it’s bad, backwards, anti-feminist, etc. is just centering yourself and your culture.

I think you are missing the whole point of the class and the field trips.

You do realize that there's a difference between being invited into someone's home and doing something required as part of a public-school-sponsored activity, right?

Sigh. Again, you’re not “required” to go anymore than religious families are “required” to send their kids to sex Ed. In both instances you can opt out.

[Anonymous]

What a great field trip. It sounds useful to learn more about world cultures. I wonder how they choose what "type/denomination" of each site they visit and if they talk about how every church/mosque/synagogue is unique.

Let your child decide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m also an atheist. You should let your 6th grader decide. She is not being excluded, you are the one excluding her. So you should have the wherewithal to explain why you have decided she is not allowed to do this, and what is the super important principle that is at stake.

OP here. Of course I have explained to them my rationale; and, honestly, I'm still making up my mind around this issue. And I know I'm excluding her because of an idea the school had. My rant was because I feel icky about the school's idea of this field trip.

Idk OP this is some weirdly tinged intolerance feigned as "atheism". I'm an atheist teacher whose students participate in the Embassy Adoption program. We've gone to a Buddhist temple and worn the appropriate clothing. We've had Islamic States and worn their clothes, we've had Israel and worn their clothes. Exploring cultures is not something to feel icky about. It's a learning experience not religious immersion

Please tell me you aren't actually a teacher. "Israel" is not a religion you dolt. You are confusing Israeli with Jewish. You also make an offensive false equivalence between Islamic state theocracies and a Israel, which is a democracy.

Choosing to miss my point to insult me. Very tolerant

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did your kid say when you explained to them that some houses of worship have dress code rules? If you were a tourist somewhere, you would also cover to enter some places and take your shoes off if you went to a Japanese persons house. I dont get what the big deal is. As a public school family you can opt out of the field trip but you dont get to change the rules for someones belief.

No, of course I don't want them to change their rules for my (lack of) beliefs.
And yes, if I was a tourist interested in going to a church or whatever I'd have to respect their rules. That's why I prefer other destinations.
My rant was more about the school putting parents of girls in a position where I have to let my kid go or make them feel like they are being excluded.

This, OP, is ridiculous. You're upset that the school has scheduled something that you don't agree with, and you have to tell your kid she can't go? You believe the school should shield you from the consequences of your parenting decisions? Idiotic.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you this much, OP: all this does is teach your kid to hate. Not good.

OP here. Honest question. Why does it teach my kids to hate?

Your unwillingness even to tolerate a dress code so that your kid can learn about a mosque strictly as an academic subject sends a message of intolerance, inflexibility, and hate.

Her kid can learn about the academic subject in class. I hope you stretched before that massive reach you just made.

Not a massive reach. She’s basically saying she refuses to let her kid enter a mosque. It’s hate, pure and simple.

OP here. Nah, I don't hate muslims, catholics, jews, buddhists, mormons, scientologists, or any other person following any religion. And I wouldn't dare visiting a temple of any denomination and not follow their rules. That's why I have no interest in visiting any religious site. What I don't like is a public school "forcing" religious rules on my kids. And if you don't think the school is forcing them, I'd argue that the school is in a position of power. You might argue they might opt out but kids that age usually want to do whatever the other kids their age do.

NP. OP, it does appear to me that you’re acting out of intolerance and, frankly, selfishness. This world needs more love, more understanding, and more support for other cultures and belief systems. Requesting that your child follow the norms of another culture is part of showing respect for that culture. The school isn’t “forcing them.” As you already stated, you can opt out. This seems like an unusual fight to pick. Instead of arguing that the school is somehow using its power to abuse you, what if you reframe your thinking to seeing this as an opportunity for education and an opportunity to show respect to another culture?

How is tolerating the subjugation of girls and women an acceptable form of “respect”? If anything, as a child I would learn to hate religion and be intolerant of such ignorance and misogyny. But evidently it’s completely cool to DCUM that the girls will be forced to cover up and exhibit their virtue while the boys are not required.

[Anonymous]

Women wear headcoverings in Orthodox Christian churches too. WHy is nobody ranting about that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll tell you this much, OP: all this does is teach your kid to hate. Not good.

OP here. Honest question. Why does it teach my kids to hate?

Your unwillingness even to tolerate a dress code so that your kid can learn about a mosque strictly as an academic subject sends a message of intolerance, inflexibility, and hate.

Her kid can learn about the academic subject in class. I hope you stretched before that massive reach you just made.

Not a massive reach. She’s basically saying she refuses to let her kid enter a mosque. It’s hate, pure and simple.

OP here. Nah, I don't hate muslims, catholics, jews, buddhists, mormons, scientologists, or any other person following any religion. And I wouldn't dare visiting a temple of any denomination and not follow their rules. That's why I have no interest in visiting any religious site. What I don't like is a public school "forcing" religious rules on my kids. And if you don't think the school is forcing them, I'd argue that the school is in a position of power. You might argue they might opt out but kids that age usually want to do whatever the other kids their age do.

NP. OP, it does appear to me that you’re acting out of intolerance and, frankly, selfishness. This world needs more love, more understanding, and more support for other cultures and belief systems. Requesting that your child follow the norms of another culture is part of showing respect for that culture. The school isn’t “forcing them.” As you already stated, you can opt out. This seems like an unusual fight to pick. Instead of arguing that the school is somehow using its power to abuse you, what if you reframe your thinking to seeing this as an opportunity for education and an opportunity to show respect to another culture?

How is tolerating the subjugation of girls and women an acceptable form of “respect”? If anything, as a child I would learn to hate religion and be intolerant of such ignorance and misogyny. But evidently it’s completely cool to DCUM that the girls will be forced to cover up and exhibit their virtue while the boys are not required.

Don’t send your child on the field trip. Keep them home and teach them that their choices have consequences and here, that means missing the trip. Most parents send their kids because it’s a worthwhile trip. That’s their parenting choice. Own yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is one angry broad. A little religion might do her some good.

It’s this type of misogyny that OP is referring to. Thanks for the great example.

You’re welcome!

Seriously, though, she has it coming. I mean, c’mon. What a ridiculous thread by an intolerant and rigid person. Anyone who thinks that the best way to deal with this issue is to forbid your kid to go on the field trip and raise a big fuss about it all - rather than turn this into a productive teachable moment - deserves ridicule and sarcasm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The school should make the boys cover their hair as well. That keeps the school from enforcing the gender discrimination at while still following the rules of the mosque.

traditionally men/boys do cover their heads with caps so they can ask both boys and girls to cover. In islam their are 2 reasons for the head covering: 1 is the modesty/purdah that applies mostly to women and is enforced on them in irfan/saudi/afghanistan and then there is the head covering which is done to show that you are in a sacred space/to show respect. In Christian culture.. respect is shown by taking off your hat/had covering to show respect but in Semitic cultures you keep your self covered to show respect. Yo also remove your shoes to show respect. So the head covering should be for all those who enter the mosque and they should all remove there shoes and it is to show respect that you are in place with has been made pure and clean for people to worship .. the head covering in the m mosque is to show respect, it isn't part of hijab or purdah, even tiny kids do it. Unfortunately it often the case that little boys wear the caps and as they grow into teen years they discard this practice which is rude but their parents dont see fit to teach their sons respect.

also why only these 3 very similar western religions? what about a buddhist temple? hindu? the islamic center is super close by and a dc landmark so I think schools should take kids just to see the architecture but there is an amazing buddhist temple on new Hampshire in ss that is also very immersive.

Op just sounds islamaphobic to me..tbh

[Anonymous]

I have thought about this a while, and I do agree with OP that this is BS. A religious institution can do whatever it wants. I have no problem with people who choose to practice Islam, and find it to be far less objectionable than Christianity.

But a school should not be doing a field trip to a religious institution that requires girls to conform to BS gender discrimination practiced by that religion. That's wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women wear headcoverings in Orthodox Christian churches too. WHy is nobody ranting about that?

Because Deal is not choosing to take the kids to an Orthodox Christian church and telling girls they need to cover their head to go there.