Continue at current school after moving out of boundary?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just about WOTP schools. Which seems to be the point you are deliberately not understanding. It is about keeping communities at EOTP schools. We're zoned IB for Deal and I don't want to send my kids there because it's so crowded. So I do understand that some schools are overcrowded. That's why "principal discretion" works. A blanket rule enforcing this stuff in areas that don't actually need it is not going to help anyone.

Can you provide an example, with specific schools? Ross has a s-load of IB families at a very small school, so a handful of families who move out of IB is not going to hurt their community one whit. What are some other examples? I know a LOT of families EOTP who are attending rising EOTP schools - Powell, Seaton, West - but they have all lotteried in from OOB and can move wherever they like.

I'm at an EOTP school, but renting. We're trying to buy EOTP but I want to stay at my current EOTP school even if we end up just outside the boundary. The fact that these are "rising" schools means that we may not be able to lottery in so easily. So if we try to stay EOTP instead of moving to Virginia we just get screwed? If I'm trying to support the school and stick with it, why can't the principal allow that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just about WOTP schools. Which seems to be the point you are deliberately not understanding. It is about keeping communities at EOTP schools. We're zoned IB for Deal and I don't want to send my kids there because it's so crowded. So I do understand that some schools are overcrowded. That's why "principal discretion" works. A blanket rule enforcing this stuff in areas that don't actually need it is not going to help anyone.

Can you provide an example, with specific schools? Ross has a s-load of IB families at a very small school, so a handful of families who move out of IB is not going to hurt their community one whit. What are some other examples? I know a LOT of families EOTP who are attending rising EOTP schools - Powell, Seaton, West - but they have all lotteried in from OOB and can move wherever they like.

I'm at an EOTP school, but renting. We're trying to buy EOTP but I want to stay at my current EOTP school even if we end up just outside the boundary. The fact that these are "rising" schools means that we may not be able to lottery in so easily. So if we try to stay EOTP instead of moving to Virginia we just get screwed? If I'm trying to support the school and stick with it, why can't the principal allow that?

Is the school fully enrolled? Is there a wait list for any of the grades?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That's only happening in a few areas, and in most of them NYC has also built new schools to accommodate the overflow, or has the planning to do so built into future development (DUMBO and Brooklyn Heights). Case in point, PS 312 in Park Slope--rezoned, and the overflow sent to a new school with 312's AP as their principal. New York schools are also dealing with volumes and class sizes you can't even imagine. And charters co-located within them. And, I'm pretty sure, less spending per pupil. And a LOT less real estate to expand into. Especially in Manhattan. But if you want to cry about a few Manhattanites who are now forced to walk their kids seven blocks to school instead of two, go right ahead. There are also some very crowded schools in Queens. Additionally, when the neighborhood school can't fit kids (only a real issue in K, in most places), they'd be bussed to the next school--not left to the whims of their parents in a car like here. As you said, the geography and transit options are different. That doesn't mean better.

The point is, even with New York's overcrowding, they have a very functional system compared to DC.

What you are proposing to do is to take one of the few things about DC's system that almost makes sense and replace it with more bureaucracy. You may only know people at Powell who lotteried in from OOB, but that might be because you do not actually know the people who live near Powell now and are being priced out of their communities. I get the impression it wouldn't bother you if they all left, but personally, one great thing about our NY school was how my kids were in the same class with kids for four years. Kids whose parents came from all walks of life. If you make all the renters have to lottery in, you're losing something important.

No one is proposing anything. This is the system, IN EXISTENCE, here in DC. And, as in NYC, this is actually only happening to a few schools. No renters must lottery in unless they move OOB.

There are also myriad reasons why the NYC argument doesn't work in DC.

For one thing, the moving issues you are talking about don't affect as many students. DC has a much higher home ownership rate than NYC. 65% of NYCers rent while only 54% of DCers do. In addition, many more of the renters will be in the higher income brackets (we can see that by looking at the average rents in both places. NYC's average is more than $3400 while DCs is $2000. While there is a COL difference, is isn't 150% different.) So you have more higher income people, who are more likely to vie for the coveted schools, renting. I can see how the moving issue is a real problem for NYC-- but in DC is simply is not.

You need to understand that the priorities of the residents in the cities are based on the needs of each city. In DC there is a real value put on neighborhood schools because our neighborhoods are 1) far apart (see density issue below and 2) are small cohesive areas that are often more akin to suburbs than to Park Slope. (And yes, I lived there for 10 years.) Travelling to another school isn't going to be easy because our density is so much less that the next Moving students to the closest school that does have space probably means sending them clear across the city, not 3 blocks away. NYC has a density of 27,016 per square mile. DC has a density of 9,800 people per square mile. I can understand why NYC wants to keep kids who move in their original schools- because so many more people move and because the solution (attend the school 3 blocks away) doesn't have major implications for the neighborhood or cause undue hardship on students. It does in DC.

But there's a bigger issue lurking here. The feeder system. In DC you have a right to attend both your IB school and the schools that school feeds to. We have exactly 2 desirable DCPS high schools, and only one that is guaranteed. That school is BUSTING at the seams with reportedly 750 freshmen entering the school this year. In NYC you don't have a right, but instead a "priority" to attend your local middle and high school. (Are their even OOB rules about this?) Again, this is because NYC has many desirable high schools and a great transit system. It's easy to get around. Flexibility is valued over proximity. Different cities value different things because of their different characteristics.

Two last points.
1 - DCPS funding figures are often wrong due to the fact that DC has to pay for many of costs which are picked up by other city's states.
2- Almost every other school district in the country operates its boundary system like DC does. NYC is the outlier, because NYC is very different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just about WOTP schools. Which seems to be the point you are deliberately not understanding. It is about keeping communities at EOTP schools. We're zoned IB for Deal and I don't want to send my kids there because it's so crowded. So I do understand that some schools are overcrowded. That's why "principal discretion" works. A blanket rule enforcing this stuff in areas that don't actually need it is not going to help anyone.

Can you provide an example, with specific schools? Ross has a s-load of IB families at a very small school, so a handful of families who move out of IB is not going to hurt their community one whit. What are some other examples? I know a LOT of families EOTP who are attending rising EOTP schools - Powell, Seaton, West - but they have all lotteried in from OOB and can move wherever they like.

I'm at an EOTP school, but renting. We're trying to buy EOTP but I want to stay at my current EOTP school even if we end up just outside the boundary. The fact that these are "rising" schools means that we may not be able to lottery in so easily. So if we try to stay EOTP instead of moving to Virginia we just get screwed? If I'm trying to support the school and stick with it, why can't the principal allow that?

Is the school fully enrolled? Is there a wait list for any of the grades?

If you know you are going to move, why not apply OOB anyway? Then you will be guaranteed a spot no matter what happens. If you don't get in, no big deal. Just enroll IB.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just about WOTP schools. Which seems to be the point you are deliberately not understanding. It is about keeping communities at EOTP schools. We're zoned IB for Deal and I don't want to send my kids there because it's so crowded. So I do understand that some schools are overcrowded. That's why "principal discretion" works. A blanket rule enforcing this stuff in areas that don't actually need it is not going to help anyone.

Can you provide an example, with specific schools? Ross has a s-load of IB families at a very small school, so a handful of families who move out of IB is not going to hurt their community one whit. What are some other examples? I know a LOT of families EOTP who are attending rising EOTP schools - Powell, Seaton, West - but they have all lotteried in from OOB and can move wherever they like.

I'm at an EOTP school, but renting. We're trying to buy EOTP but I want to stay at my current EOTP school even if we end up just outside the boundary. The fact that these are "rising" schools means that we may not be able to lottery in so easily. So if we try to stay EOTP instead of moving to Virginia we just get screwed? If I'm trying to support the school and stick with it, why can't the principal allow that?

Is the school fully enrolled? Is there a wait list for any of the grades?

If you know you are going to move, why not apply OOB anyway? Then you will be guaranteed a spot no matter what happens. If you don't get in, no big deal. Just enroll IB.

And welcome to gaming the system

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just about WOTP schools. Which seems to be the point you are deliberately not understanding. It is about keeping communities at EOTP schools. We're zoned IB for Deal and I don't want to send my kids there because it's so crowded. So I do understand that some schools are overcrowded. That's why "principal discretion" works. A blanket rule enforcing this stuff in areas that don't actually need it is not going to help anyone.

Can you provide an example, with specific schools? Ross has a s-load of IB families at a very small school, so a handful of families who move out of IB is not going to hurt their community one whit. What are some other examples? I know a LOT of families EOTP who are attending rising EOTP schools - Powell, Seaton, West - but they have all lotteried in from OOB and can move wherever they like.

I'm at an EOTP school, but renting. We're trying to buy EOTP but I want to stay at my current EOTP school even if we end up just outside the boundary. The fact that these are "rising" schools means that we may not be able to lottery in so easily. So if we try to stay EOTP instead of moving to Virginia we just get screwed? If I'm trying to support the school and stick with it, why can't the principal allow that?

Is the school fully enrolled? Is there a wait list for any of the grades?

If you know you are going to move, why not apply OOB anyway? Then you will be guaranteed a spot no matter what happens. If you don't get in, no big deal. Just enroll IB.

And welcome to gaming the system

NP but I don't see that as gaming the system at all. You will have gotten an OOB spot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just about WOTP schools. Which seems to be the point you are deliberately not understanding. It is about keeping communities at EOTP schools. We're zoned IB for Deal and I don't want to send my kids there because it's so crowded. So I do understand that some schools are overcrowded. That's why "principal discretion" works. A blanket rule enforcing this stuff in areas that don't actually need it is not going to help anyone.

Can you provide an example, with specific schools? Ross has a s-load of IB families at a very small school, so a handful of families who move out of IB is not going to hurt their community one whit. What are some other examples? I know a LOT of families EOTP who are attending rising EOTP schools - Powell, Seaton, West - but they have all lotteried in from OOB and can move wherever they like.

I'm at an EOTP school, but renting. We're trying to buy EOTP but I want to stay at my current EOTP school even if we end up just outside the boundary. The fact that these are "rising" schools means that we may not be able to lottery in so easily. So if we try to stay EOTP instead of moving to Virginia we just get screwed? If I'm trying to support the school and stick with it, why can't the principal allow that?

Is the school fully enrolled? Is there a wait list for any of the grades?

If you know you are going to move, why not apply OOB anyway? Then you will be guaranteed a spot no matter what happens. If you don't get in, no big deal. Just enroll IB.

And welcome to gaming the system

NP but I don't see that as gaming the system at all. You will have gotten an OOB spot.

There's no gaming - it's a perfectly OK!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just about WOTP schools. Which seems to be the point you are deliberately not understanding. It is about keeping communities at EOTP schools. We're zoned IB for Deal and I don't want to send my kids there because it's so crowded. So I do understand that some schools are overcrowded. That's why "principal discretion" works. A blanket rule enforcing this stuff in areas that don't actually need it is not going to help anyone.

Can you provide an example, with specific schools? Ross has a s-load of IB families at a very small school, so a handful of families who move out of IB is not going to hurt their community one whit. What are some other examples? I know a LOT of families EOTP who are attending rising EOTP schools - Powell, Seaton, West - but they have all lotteried in from OOB and can move wherever they like.

Uh, no. The boundary changes moved quite a lot of people to new schools. We're one family that got into Powell with IB preference and now we're zoned for Bruce Monroe. Others just a few blocks from us are now zoned for Barnard or Raymond. I know a family that moved into our neighborhood specifically to get into Powell (for a kid who's not yet school aged) and now they're OOB by just one block.

I agree with the former New Yorker. It's kinda weird to see people from areas that were screaming last year during the boundary process about property values, community, and maintaining continuity for your kids - now saying that those things aren't really that important. You were able to maintain it in Ward 3, but all that's been tossed aside EOTP.

And, IIUC the new rules correctly, OOB students do not get feeder rights to the next school.

[Anonymous]

For one thing, the moving issues you are talking about don't affect as many students. DC has a much higher home ownership rate than NYC. 65% of NYCers rent while only 54% of DCers do. In addition, many more of the renters will be in the higher income brackets (we can see that by looking at the average rents in both places. NYC's average is more than $3400 while DCs is $2000. While there is a COL difference, is isn't 150% different.) So you have more higher income people, who are more likely to vie for the coveted schools, renting. I can see how the moving issue is a real problem for NYC-- but in DC is simply is not.

You need to understand that the priorities of the residents in the cities are based on the needs of each city. In DC there is a real value put on neighborhood schools because our neighborhoods are 1) far apart (see density issue below and 2) are small cohesive areas that are often more akin to suburbs than to Park Slope. (And yes, I lived there for 10 years.) Travelling to another school isn't going to be easy because our density is so much less that the next Moving students to the closest school that does have space probably means sending them clear across the city, not 3 blocks away. NYC has a density of 27,016 per square mile. DC has a density of 9,800 people per square mile. I can understand why NYC wants to keep kids who move in their original schools- because so many more people move and because the solution (attend the school 3 blocks away) doesn't have major implications for the neighborhood or cause undue hardship on students. It does in DC.

Not the poster you're responding to, but I have to wonder if this owner vs. renter thing is at the crux of the issue. More than half of people rent in DC but they don't and shouldn't really be considered part of the "small, cohesive" neighborhoods where they live until they own there.

Let's face it, with the overcrowding that keeps getting cited, it's now pretty much impossible to get into desirable schools OOB. And it's renters who are most likely causing that overcrowding.

Above, I cited Powell as one school that experienced a shake up this year. Homes in the current boundary are either very expensive at $750K to $1.3 million or pretty low rent. So if you're a family with a second grader who's been there since pre-K and you decide to move out of rental to accommodate family growth, you're forced to either stay in your tiny apartment or move to a school where homes are more affordable. If were a principal and knew that kid was about to score well on upcoming tests, I'd want him to stay put.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is not just about WOTP schools. Which seems to be the point you are deliberately not understanding. It is about keeping communities at EOTP schools. We're zoned IB for Deal and I don't want to send my kids there because it's so crowded. So I do understand that some schools are overcrowded. That's why "principal discretion" works. A blanket rule enforcing this stuff in areas that don't actually need it is not going to help anyone.

Can you provide an example, with specific schools? Ross has a s-load of IB families at a very small school, so a handful of families who move out of IB is not going to hurt their community one whit. What are some other examples? I know a LOT of families EOTP who are attending rising EOTP schools - Powell, Seaton, West - but they have all lotteried in from OOB and can move wherever they like.

Uh, no. The boundary changes moved quite a lot of people to new schools. We're one family that got into Powell with IB preference and now we're zoned for Bruce Monroe. Others just a few blocks from us are now zoned for Barnard or Raymond. I know a family that moved into our neighborhood specifically to get into Powell (for a kid who's not yet school aged) and now they're OOB by just one block.

I agree with the former New Yorker. It's kinda weird to see people from areas that were screaming last year during the boundary process about property values, community, and maintaining continuity for your kids - now saying that those things aren't really that important. You were able to maintain it in Ward 3, but all that's been tossed aside EOTP.

And, IIUC the new rules correctly, OOB students do not get feeder rights to the next school.

Incorrect. OOB feeder rights continue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

For one thing, the moving issues you are talking about don't affect as many students. DC has a much higher home ownership rate than NYC. 65% of NYCers rent while only 54% of DCers do. In addition, many more of the renters will be in the higher income brackets (we can see that by looking at the average rents in both places. NYC's average is more than $3400 while DCs is $2000. While there is a COL difference, is isn't 150% different.) So you have more higher income people, who are more likely to vie for the coveted schools, renting. I can see how the moving issue is a real problem for NYC-- but in DC is simply is not.

You need to understand that the priorities of the residents in the cities are based on the needs of each city. In DC there is a real value put on neighborhood schools because our neighborhoods are 1) far apart (see density issue below and 2) are small cohesive areas that are often more akin to suburbs than to Park Slope. (And yes, I lived there for 10 years.) Travelling to another school isn't going to be easy because our density is so much less that the next Moving students to the closest school that does have space probably means sending them clear across the city, not 3 blocks away. NYC has a density of 27,016 per square mile. DC has a density of 9,800 people per square mile. I can understand why NYC wants to keep kids who move in their original schools- because so many more people move and because the solution (attend the school 3 blocks away) doesn't have major implications for the neighborhood or cause undue hardship on students. It does in DC.

Not the poster you're responding to, but I have to wonder if this owner vs. renter thing is at the crux of the issue. More than half of people rent in DC but they don't and shouldn't really be considered part of the "small, cohesive" neighborhoods where they live until they own there.

Let's face it, with the overcrowding that keeps getting cited, it's now pretty much impossible to get into desirable schools OOB. And it's renters who are most likely causing that overcrowding.

Above, I cited Powell as one school that experienced a shake up this year. Homes in the current boundary are either very expensive at $750K to $1.3 million or pretty low rent. So if you're a family with a second grader who's been there since pre-K and you decide to move out of rental to accommodate family growth, you're forced to either stay in your tiny apartment or move to a school where homes are more affordable. If were a principal and knew that kid was about to score well on upcoming tests, I'd want him to stay put.

And if that kid were likely to score poorly on upcoming tests, what would prevent the principal from deciding to not let the child stay. Or only allow good students to stay. I think this is a slippery slope.

[Anonymous]

This is Not NYC people. There is not way you can compare. In every other part of the country, you move, you go to new school. Period!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NYC does indeed deal with overcrowding at desired schools but the way they handle it is to simply deny spaces to those IB.

"However, because of severe overcrowding in some neighborhoods and the popularity of certain schools, it is not always possible for your child to attend his or her zoned elementary school. If this happens, you will be placed on a waiting list. If by late spring your child is still on the waiting list for a zoned elementary school, the Department of Education’s Office of Student Enrollment will assign the child to another school outside his or her zone. "
http://www.wnyc.org/schoolbook/guides/enrollment/

How on earth is that a better solution? Your IB kid now cannot attend his neighborhood school -- if you want to address schools and community fabrics, this is a rotten solution. And one that could never be replicated in DC due to the differences in density, geography and public transport.

We could then replicate the PK4 at Brent battles all over the city. Good times!

At least the spam families IB for Brent would be guaranteed a space at a nearby school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is Not NYC people. There is not way you can compare. In every other part of the country, you move, you go to new school. Period!

But this is not every other part of the country. This is a small city with HUGE income disparity - tiny pockets of concentrated wealth where people don't use the public schools and exponentially more pockets of concentrated poverty where the public schools couldn't possibly close the achievement gap without a middle class pulling them up.

A middle class is what's creating rising EOTP schools. That's a need that's particular to DC, and we're right on the edge of it changing it for the better. Churn doesn't help that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is Not NYC people. There is not way you can compare. In every other part of the country, you move, you go to new school. Period!

But this is not every other part of the country. This is a small city with HUGE income disparity - tiny pockets of concentrated wealth where people don't use the public schools and exponentially more pockets of concentrated poverty where the public schools couldn't possibly close the achievement gap without a middle class pulling them up.

A middle class is what's creating rising EOTP schools. That's a need that's particular to DC, and we're right on the edge of it changing it for the better. Churn doesn't help that.

There isn't any churn from this issue! This is a problem maybe for you and your family, but overall, this is simply not a problem. Overcrowding is a problem. Too few quality schools is a problem. Inequality is a problem. Churn from students moving isn't.

The solution you seem to be going for is a lottery based system for all, maybe with preferences for proximity. We have been down that rabbit hole and everyone summarily rejected it. See: 2013.