Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She was practicing without a Virginia license period. Not smart.

Yeah, I was just going to post something similar. Why on earth did she let her CPM license expire and why was she still practicing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Speculation like this is tasteless. The baby could have died from something totally unrelated. Even if that's not the case, it is still really low class of you to speculate. I am sure the parents are in enough pain, they don't need know-it-all Nancy's like you to make it worse. They will be dealing with this for the rest of their lives while you will eventually move on and find something else to comment on. Have some compassion and learn to show restraint.

Maybe...but if that is the case, why would Karen have been charged with child endangerment and manslaughter?

Honestly, I don't feel bad about posting. I highly doubt that the parents are even reading this site, much less my post. So I fail to see how I am making anything worse for THEM (the people who matter). So why shouldn't I post what - let's face it - many of us are thinking. Perhaps - by my posting and raising this issue - it will make a family in a similar situation (breach baby but wanting the home birth midwife route) re-consider.

I suspect you are simply one of those women who are strongly anti-OB establishment and pro-midwife and you realize that cases like this will likely make people second guess going the midwife (or really, the home birth) route.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Speculation like this is tasteless. The baby could have died from something totally unrelated. Even if that's not the case, it is still really low class of you to speculate. I am sure the parents are in enough pain, they don't need know-it-all Nancy's like you to make it worse. They will be dealing with this for the rest of their lives while you will eventually move on and find something else to comment on. Have some compassion and learn to show restraint.

Maybe...but if that is the case, why would Karen have been charged with child endangerment and manslaughter?

Honestly, I don't feel bad about posting. I highly doubt that the parents are even reading this site, much less my post. So I fail to see how I am making anything worse for THEM (the people who matter). So why shouldn't I post what - let's face it - many of us are thinking. Perhaps - by my posting and raising this issue - it will make a family in a similar situation (breach baby but wanting the home birth midwife route) re-consider.

I suspect you are simply one of those women who are strongly anti-OB establishment and pro-midwife and you realize that cases like this will likely make people second guess going the midwife (or really, the home birth) route.

I'm very pro midwife / homebirth (I'm one of those whackos that had an HBAC) - I have no problems with what you posted. You have every right to post what you and I'm sure many other people are thinking.

Of course I do hope that people don't turn this into an excuse to bash homebirth and scare people away from that option. Because babies die in hospitals too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Speculation like this is tasteless. The baby could have died from something totally unrelated. Even if that's not the case, it is still really low class of you to speculate. I am sure the parents are in enough pain, they don't need know-it-all Nancy's like you to make it worse. They will be dealing with this for the rest of their lives while you will eventually move on and find something else to comment on. Have some compassion and learn to show restraint.

Maybe...but if that is the case, why would Karen have been charged with child endangerment and manslaughter?

Honestly, I don't feel bad about posting. I highly doubt that the parents are even reading this site, much less my post. So I fail to see how I am making anything worse for THEM (the people who matter). So why shouldn't I post what - let's face it - many of us are thinking. Perhaps - by my posting and raising this issue - it will make a family in a similar situation (breach baby but wanting the home birth midwife route) re-consider.

I suspect you are simply one of those women who are strongly anti-OB establishment and pro-midwife and you realize that cases like this will likely make people second guess going the midwife (or really, the home birth) route.

I'm very pro midwife / homebirth (I'm one of those whackos that had an HBAC) - I have no problems with what you posted. You have every right to post what you and I'm sure many other people are thinking.

Of course I do hope that people don't turn this into an excuse to bash homebirth and scare people away from that option. Because babies die in hospitals too.

I agree with you, 14:02. It is situations like this that can give homebirth a bad name. My heart is broken for the parents, however, I do not support an illegally practicing midwife who routinely attempts high-risk births at home. And I say this as someone whose daughter was born at home with a CNM.

[Anonymous]

The DC case is separate from the VA case. The DC case is a "cease and desist" order. From what I know of it, it came into being because of a hospital transfer, but I do not think there was a bad outcome.

The VA case is related to a breech birth in Alexandria where the baby was born alive, but in bad shape, so the baby was transported to the hospital. Baby died later after the parents terminated life support. Karen has been charged with involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment.

Karen is not licensed in VA, nor do I think she ever has been. Licensure says nothing about the quality of the midwife. Licensure just keeps midwives out of jail.

Karen is a skilled midwife, and the outcome for the breech baby would likely have been the same if it had been born vaginally in the hospital. Licensed or not, it could have happened to any practitioner. Babies die in the hospital, too, just as often as they do at home births.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The DC case is separate from the VA case. The DC case is a "cease and desist" order. From what I know of it, it came into being because of a hospital transfer, but I do not think there was a bad outcome.

The VA case is related to a breech birth in Alexandria where the baby was born alive, but in bad shape, so the baby was transported to the hospital. Baby died later after the parents terminated life support. Karen has been charged with involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment.

Karen is not licensed in VA, nor do I think she ever has been. Licensure says nothing about the quality of the midwife. Licensure just keeps midwives out of jail.

Karen is a skilled midwife, and the outcome for the breech baby would likely have been the same if it had been born vaginally in the hospital. Licensed or not, it could have happened to any practitioner. Babies die in the hospital, too, just as often as they do at home births.

Wow, a whole lot of assumptions in your message. I can assure you that midwives aren't licensed to keep them out of jail. Nor can you assume that the baby would have died if born at the hospital. This is a tragic case. I have no idea why any parent would chose an unlicensed midwife in VA when there are a lot of great options for licensed ones. For hospital based to birth center to home birth. Something terrible went on, I only hope that the parents knew what they were getting into before hand.

[Anonymous]

BS. licensing does more than keep midwives out of jail. NARM standards for CPMs require education, training, and clinical experience. NARM doesn't do this just to keep people out of jail. They do it to increase public safety by setting minimum standards for practicing.

[Anonymous]

If she is a CPM but not licensed in VA that means she didn't fill out the form and pay the fee- nothing more, nothing less. So really, the piece of paper is irrelevant as far as her skills and abilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:BS. licensing does more than keep midwives out of jail. NARM standards for CPMs require education, training, and clinical experience. NARM doesn't do this just to keep people out of jail. They do it to increase public safety by setting minimum standards for practicing.

I agree. To say that midwives are only licensed so that they stay out of jail is ridiculous.

And if that were true, then why'd she let her license expire?

I have also heard that Karen will usually have the expecting couples hire a montrice to do cervical checks and doppler heart rate checks and stuff during the first part of labor so that she can better time her arrival at the birth - I think she commutes down from Baltimore for most of the births, so that way she doesn't have to leave her home too early, only to have to turn around and go back if the baby isn't coming just yet. Maybe this is okay for low-risk women, but given how many high-risk women she attends, this just seems like a really risky practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Speculation like this is tasteless. The baby could have died from something totally unrelated. Even if that's not the case, it is still really low class of you to speculate. I am sure the parents are in enough pain, they don't need know-it-all Nancy's like you to make it worse. They will be dealing with this for the rest of their lives while you will eventually move on and find something else to comment on. Have some compassion and learn to show restraint.

Maybe...but if that is the case, why would Karen have been charged with child endangerment and manslaughter?

Honestly, I don't feel bad about posting. I highly doubt that the parents are even reading this site, much less my post. So I fail to see how I am making anything worse for THEM (the people who matter). So why shouldn't I post what - let's face it - many of us are thinking. Perhaps - by my posting and raising this issue - it will make a family in a similar situation (breach baby but wanting the home birth midwife route) re-consider.

I suspect you are simply one of those women who are strongly anti-OB establishment and pro-midwife and you realize that cases like this will likely make people second guess going the midwife (or really, the home birth) route.

Why would I care how other people choose to give birth? I am not an OBGYN, nurse, or midwife. My livelihood does not depend on the birthing choices that women make, and I do not get emotionally involved in other people's personal choices.

I do however get annoyed when people lack compassion and make speculations without having all the facts. You have no idea what happened, and the fact that the baby was born breech could be entirely irrelevant. Maybe there was some other health issue and the baby wouldn't have survived anyway, maybe it was something that we have no idea about. So to imply that "this wouldn't have happened if..." is not only ignorant, it shows a lack of compassion.

I am sure the parents will "what if, what if" until the day they die. So even if it was the midwifes fault, they really don't need your "this could have been prevented!!!" commentary. It's not helpful.

And as for why would Karen be charged? Wake up and learn a thing or two about this country. Parents have been charged in this country for having a homebirth and then calling an ambulance when the baby was fine. Midwives have been charged for the same reason. Ask the licensed midwife in Cali who is going through this. So really, I need more details before I make a judgment call about anything.

Really, you have no idea who is reading this board. I hope that one day if you find yourself in a tough situation, you will be shown more compassion than what you are showing. That goes for every other know-it-all Nancy on here.

[Anonymous]

I don't think anyone is excessively bashing the parents or tastelessly mocking their outcome.

I think most of the criticism is directed at the Karen Carr, who was practicing completely illegally (without a license) and routinely delivers high-risk women at home.

As I understand it, there is pretty much nothing that Karen WON'T attend at home - breach twins, etc.

Given that Karen attends so many of these high-risk women at home (despite the risks involved) leads people to question whether she was practicing responsibly when she was delivering the baby who passed away. I don't think it is an unreasonable or tasteless question. My deepest sympathies are with the parents. This is a terrible tragedy. But it is important to talk about because other couples who are considering using Karen Carr are entitled to know information about her in order to make an informed choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If she is a CPM but not licensed in VA that means she didn't fill out the form and pay the fee- nothing more, nothing less. So really, the piece of paper is irrelevant as far as her skills and abilities.

A "piece of paper" backed up by a paid "fee" could be viewed by some people as irrelevant for professionals in many fields. Very foolish, however, to acts as if it doesn't matter and practice without it.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately I think there's a major trend within the natural birthing community where less formal education is seen as preferable. As someone who had two natural births and one homebirth, I fully understand that we're wanting to avoid overintervention, but I strongly dislike this reflexive aspect that results.

Met several individuals who didn't like my (very non-interventive) CNMs transfer rate -- well, I didn't like what their CPMs were willing to handle at home -- twins without ultrasounds, etc. Yikes. I wouldn't want to choose a midwife who would feel safe doing something I would not, so I think this discussion is perfectly valid. I've heard Karen is a superb midwife but it is important to choose a midwife whose lines in the dirt match up nicely with your own, so always good to discuss where those lines may fall...

[Anonymous]

Very sad.

[Anonymous]

This is horrible that a baby died. As a mother of a breech child who was going the hospital route regardless, I have to say that it's tragic that they tried a breech birth at home- there is a reason that here is only the one doctor who delivers breech at a hospital. Modern medicine has breech as a c-section because of the risks involved. My father was born breech and my grandmother STILL talks of the pains she experiences 60 years later.

I should note all the CRAP that people have given me for not intervening with my breech child. People need to educate themselves more if they have a breech child and not be so judgemental of those that choose to take the doctor's advice and have a c-section. I have had SEVERAL people tell me I should have done things to intervene which we now know would have likely killed our daughter from what they found when she was born. I should note that these are people that barely know me, knew nothing of my medical history...and are often the mom's of DCUrban Mom judging others.

Just remember, we all want a healthy baby in our arms.