Harvard is not alone. UC students Without 8th Grade Math Skills Skyrockets

[Anonymous]

You would think I logically that students could just go take algebra at a community college but CA in the name if equity has removed remedial math class at almost all community colleges.

Too many students graduating from public high schools in CA are unable to test into at least a transfer level math class like precalculus or statistics so instead of making sure public high school students were solid in math, a law was passed that community college students wouldn’t have to take pre-transfer math classes like algebra 1, geometry and algebra 2. They would be allowed to immediately take a transfer level math classes.

Then they added dumbed down math classes like math for liberal arts students and math fur elementary school teachers that now count as meeting the cal state /UC math requirement.

Here are some highlights from articles that explains how messed up the situation is :

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2022 — 4:02 PM

Newsom signs bill to ban most remedial classes at community colleges

Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday signed Assembly Bill 1705, setting into motion changes that will severely restrict the ability of community colleges to offer remedial math and English courses.

The legislation creates new rules that mostly prevent colleges from offering those courses, which can’t be used toward transfer to four-year universities.

Prior to AB 705, 80% of community college students were placed into ineffective and demoralizing remedial courses. In fact, decades of research has established that when students are placed into remedial English and math—courses which students have already taken in high school—they are less likely to earn a degree. AB 705 has made groundbreaking progress for students: 96% of students statewide start community college in transfer-level English and 78% do so in math. Completion rates have likewise increased substantially.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:State education leaders have been trying and in many cases succeeding to dumb down math education for years. Couple that with rampant grade inflation and this no wonder that basic math skills are compromised in the HS educational process but every one has As in Calc so all must be fine. Right?

+1. pair this with horrible pedagogies that view repetition and recall as bad, and computer based learning, and you get plummeting math achievement. Note that this affects all kids, not just disadvantaged kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You would think I logically that students could just go take algebra at a community college but CA in the name if equity has removed remedial math class at almost all community colleges.

Too many students graduating from public high schools in CA are unable to test into at least a transfer level math class like precalculus or statistics so instead of making sure public high school students were solid in math, a law was passed that community college students wouldn’t have to take pre-transfer math classes like algebra 1, geometry and algebra 2. They would be allowed to immediately take a transfer level math classes.

Then they added dumbed down math classes like math for liberal arts students and math fur elementary school teachers that now count as meeting the cal state /UC math requirement.

Here are some highlights from articles that explains how messed up the situation is :

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2022 — 4:02 PM

Newsom signs bill to ban most remedial classes at community colleges

Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday signed Assembly Bill 1705, setting into motion changes that will severely restrict the ability of community colleges to offer remedial math and English courses.

The legislation creates new rules that mostly prevent colleges from offering those courses, which can’t be used toward transfer to four-year universities.

Prior to AB 705, 80% of community college students were placed into ineffective and demoralizing remedial courses. In fact, decades of research has established that when students are placed into remedial English and math—courses which students have already taken in high school—they are less likely to earn a degree. AB 705 has made groundbreaking progress for students: 96% of students statewide start community college in transfer-level English and 78% do so in math. Completion rates have likewise increased substantially.

OMG, what?! Where are students supposed to get remedial courses if not in CC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the UCs serve their residents.

I just don't know why some of these state schools are ranked so highly. Sure, Cal, UCLA, Michigan, etc are tough admits from OOS. But from in state? Not really. And are they great students? Not really. That's fine. I think this is how states should act tbh. But these are not T20 colleges.

No, it’s super tough to get into the UCs even if you are in state. The Bay Area produces the most strong students anywhere in America, and it’s impossible to get into the UCs unless you are a savant. That’s why so many California students end up going to college outside of California.

[Anonymous]

^ So now if a student wants to go back and become a stem major after being g poorly taught math in high school they won’t be able to find remedial math classes at most community colleges. So no more going back to algebra 1 or algebra 2 in order to really understand math.

And CA continues to listen to math educators in education departments instead of mathematics professors in math departments in order to continue to dumb down math.

This is why so many Asian students do so well. Their parents realize the way math is taught is so slow and doesn’t lead to becoming a solid math student. So they realize they must supplement math by buying workbooks and/ir paying for math enrichment. Too many black and Latino parents keep trusting public schools!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ So now if a student wants to go back and become a stem major after being g poorly taught math in high school they won’t be able to find remedial math classes at most community colleges. So no more going back to algebra 1 or algebra 2 in order to really understand math.

And CA continues to listen to math educators in education departments instead of mathematics professors in math departments in order to continue to dumb down math.

This is why so many Asian students do so well. Their parents realize the way math is taught is so slow and doesn’t lead to becoming a solid math student. So they realize they must supplement math by buying workbooks and/ir paying for math enrichment. Too many black and Latino parents keep trusting public schools!

I would argue that the exact opposite true for most students. American high schools accelerate countless students who are not ready for acceleration and then they never learn the basics. It's a race to nowhere.

[Anonymous]

yet our POTUS said -

"United States doesn’t have people with ‘certain talents’ to fill jobs domestically"

Ok

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You would think I logically that students could just go take algebra at a community college but CA in the name if equity has removed remedial math class at almost all community colleges.

Too many students graduating from public high schools in CA are unable to test into at least a transfer level math class like precalculus or statistics so instead of making sure public high school students were solid in math, a law was passed that community college students wouldn’t have to take pre-transfer math classes like algebra 1, geometry and algebra 2. They would be allowed to immediately take a transfer level math classes.

Then they added dumbed down math classes like math for liberal arts students and math fur elementary school teachers that now count as meeting the cal state /UC math requirement.

Here are some highlights from articles that explains how messed up the situation is :

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2022 — 4:02 PM

Newsom signs bill to ban most remedial classes at community colleges

Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday signed Assembly Bill 1705, setting into motion changes that will severely restrict the ability of community colleges to offer remedial math and English courses.

The legislation creates new rules that mostly prevent colleges from offering those courses, which can’t be used toward transfer to four-year universities.

Prior to AB 705, 80% of community college students were placed into ineffective and demoralizing remedial courses. In fact, decades of research has established that when students are placed into remedial English and math—courses which students have already taken in high school—they are less likely to earn a degree. AB 705 has made groundbreaking progress for students: 96% of students statewide start community college in transfer-level English and 78% do so in math. Completion rates have likewise increased substantially.

OMG, what?! Where are students supposed to get remedial courses if not in CC?

In California, they can get this at UC San Diego. The PP who says it is super tough to get into a UC is correct only if you come from a high school that has a lot of high performers. UC's take applicants by high school. So a horrible high school where 90% of the students can't even meet basic standards is treated the same in high school admissions as a high school with 30 plus national merit semi finalists. It is an equity driven admissions process. Now it is up the UC's to help its students. If they didn't learn basic math in middle or high school, it's time for the 4 year colleges to step up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone loves to find fault with Harvard or other elite institutions, or even flagship public universities, but the truth of the matter is, the kids of this generation are not okay. They were raised on screens, and now having ChatGPT do their homework and a lot of their critical thinking for them.

It's not even their fault, because their parents and their school systems are the ones who enabled this to begin with!

The problem is the univ of cal has tens of thousands of better qualified applicants to choose from who don't have these limitations. Instead, in the name of equity it chose to admit less qualified ones. What the UC's have done is entirely purposeful. It is a feature, not a bug. You are just seeing the objective result of that.

The driver is delivering a statewide representative student population which is in the state’s interest. UVA and UT have similar programs and objectives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone loves to find fault with Harvard or other elite institutions, or even flagship public universities, but the truth of the matter is, the kids of this generation are not okay. They were raised on screens, and now having ChatGPT do their homework and a lot of their critical thinking for them.

It's not even their fault, because their parents and their school systems are the ones who enabled this to begin with!

The problem is the univ of cal has tens of thousands of better qualified applicants to choose from who don't have these limitations. Instead, in the name of equity it chose to admit less qualified ones. What the UC's have done is entirely purposeful. It is a feature, not a bug. You are just seeing the objective result of that.

The driver is delivering a statewide representative student population which is in the state’s interest. UVA and UT have similar programs and objectives.

The argument against that driver is that it disincentivizes the system- parents, students, elementary school, high schools- from producing top quality students. If the goal is to get a student population representative of the demographics of the state, the easiest way to achieve that is what California is doing: letting in students who can't meet basic standards. You have met your driver goal. But look at the cost. It is a lot easier to produce a crappy student than a stellar student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many California high schools allow for unlimited retakes, don't punish for late work, etc. The report details that many of these students come from low-income, English-learning environments.

Even if the UC's still used SAT's they would get the same quality of applicant since they select by high school.

Can you imagine being an OOS student paying $90k a year for something like this?

I’m a California parent. Apparently MCPS allows for retakes. When I read that on DCUM, I was surprised. I also read there are “honors” classes for all students, regardless of capability or interest? My son is applying OOS to UMD and it definitely made me pause. What kind of students will be his classmates if the most competitive district in the state of MD (MCPS) has such lenient policies? At least in California, the top school districts are insanely competitive. Retakes? That would never happen at my child’s school.

They’re not for everyone, but as a California resident the UCs are a state treasure.

as someone who was educated in CA, had kids in young ES there, and then moved to MCPS, for the most part, MD public schools are better than CA public schools.

Yes, there is definitely grade inflation in MCPS, but they are trying to address that, including retakes, though my kid's school has never allowed unlimited retakes.

MCPS has some great magnet programs, too. It's partly why we moved out of the pricey Bay Area, because most public schools don't have gifted or magnet schools, thanks to budget cuts.

BTW, my kid with a 1580 SAT score, and all 5 on 12+ APs, is at UMD as a dual STEM major. There are many at UMD like my kid. Your kid will be fine.

But, agree, I do wish MD had the great public university choices that CA does, but MD is tiny compared to CA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many California high schools allow for unlimited retakes, don't punish for late work, etc. The report details that many of these students come from low-income, English-learning environments.

Even if the UC's still used SAT's they would get the same quality of applicant since they select by high school.

Can you imagine being an OOS student paying $90k a year for something like this?

I’m a California parent. Apparently MCPS allows for retakes. When I read that on DCUM, I was surprised. I also read there are “honors” classes for all students, regardless of capability or interest? My son is applying OOS to UMD and it definitely made me pause. What kind of students will be his classmates if the most competitive district in the state of MD (MCPS) has such lenient policies? At least in California, the top school districts are insanely competitive. Retakes? That would never happen at my child’s school.

They’re not for everyone, but as a California resident the UCs are a state treasure.

as someone who was educated in CA, had kids in young ES there, and then moved to MCPS, for the most part, MD public schools are better than CA public schools.

Yes, there is definitely grade inflation in MCPS, but they are trying to address that, including retakes, though my kid's school has never allowed unlimited retakes.

MCPS has some great magnet programs, too. It's partly why we moved out of the pricey Bay Area, because most public schools don't have gifted or magnet schools, thanks to budget cuts.

BTW, my kid with a 1580 SAT score, and all 5 on 12+ APs, is at UMD as a dual STEM major. There are many at UMD like my kid. Your kid will be fine.

But, agree, I do wish MD had the great public university choices that CA does, but MD is tiny compared to CA.

The data says that there are not a lot like your kid at UMD. 36% submit an SAT score, for a total of 2,138 students.

Of these 2,138 students who submitted an SAT score, only 534 students scored above a 1510. UMD has 5,828 freshman.

And of these 534, using any type regression analysis yields fewer than 150 1550+ scorers, and fewer than 50 1580 scorers.

So out of a freshman population of 5,828, approximately 1.5% are like your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.newsweek.com/students-ucsd-without-8th-grade-math-skills-skyrockets-11030373

18% UC students placed below Algebra 1.

Among the students not meeting middle school math levels:
42% had taken precalculus or calculus. And 25% of these students had a math GPA of 4.0 in high school.


Takeaway is that you can't trust high school GPA.
4.0 in Calculus can't pass Algebra. Something is going on.

College admissions process is rigged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the UCs serve their residents.

I just don't know why some of these state schools are ranked so highly. Sure, Cal, UCLA, Michigan, etc are tough admits from OOS. But from in state? Not really. And are they great students? Not really. That's fine. I think this is how states should act tbh. But these are not T20 colleges.

No, it’s super tough to get into the UCs even if you are in state. The Bay Area produces the most strong students anywhere in America, and it’s impossible to get into the UCs unless you are a savant. That’s why so many California students end up going to college outside of California.

Obviously not if one in eight kids at UCSD need remedial math. The UCs pursue a quota system where they are limited in how many kids they are taking from the most rigorous schools and need to take from the least rigorous as well. Clearly it isn’t working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The dirty little secret of the UC's is that they select a certain percentage from each high school, whether that high school is an overperforming one in Palo Alto or Irvine or an underperforming one in LAUSD.

Prior to tests being banned, the average SAT scores were low, below 1300 at most campuses.

Now that SATs are banned, the equity drive has seen the UC system oversubscribed with low performing students.

Hopefully these students can get the remediation they deserve so they can thrive in more difficult classes.

I’m confused. This isn’t a dirty secret but what most public university systems do. Look at conservative Texas, The UT and A&M system have exactly this and they find ways to make it work. If you want uber competitive only rich white/asian colleges, there’s many top privates to choose from.

UT found the way to make it work: UT is test required and that makes all the difference.

Haha how naive. https://catalog.utexas.edu/search/?P=M%20301" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://catalog.utexas.edu/search/?P=M%20301

M 301 (TCCN: MATH 1314). College Algebra.

Subjects include a brief review of elementary algebra; linear, quadratic, exponential, and logarithmic functions; polynomials; systems of linear equations; applications. Three lecture hours a week for one semester. May not be counted toward a degree in mathematics. Credit for Mathematics 301 may not be earned after a student has received credit for any calculus course with a grade of C- or better. Prerequisite: A passing score on the mathematics section of the Texas Higher Education Assessment (THEA) test (or an appropriate assessment test).

M 301 is the lowest-level "precalculus" course we offer. It should be an honest college algebra course, that is, not an intermediate algebra course (which is offered by community colleges and some four-year colleges and which is often equivalent to second-year high school algebra.) This syllabus is written for use in summer school (the only time we offer M 301). It assumes 26 lectures.
Chapter 1 Five Fundamental Themes 5 sections 4 lectures
Chapter 2 Algebraic Expressions 5 sections 4 lectures
Chapter 3 Equations and Inequalities 5 sections 5 lectures
Chapter 4 Graphs and Functions 4 sections 4 lectures
Chapter 5 Polynomial and Rational Functions 4 sections 4 lectures
Chapter 6 Exponential, Logarithmic Functions 4 sections 3 lectures
Chapter 7 Systems of Equations, Inequalities 3 sections 2 lectures

Tests aren’t saving you from this incompetent generation.

Testing forces accountability prior to college admissions. It used to be that if a student was bombing the math SAT, they were incentivized to study and try to raise their scores. Now students can just apply test-optional and sidestep the issue until college. Returning to test-required will absolutely make a difference.

Texas requires test scores and still has this issue.