NCAP and Machine pricing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm. My RMSC 10yo is in the water 5 days per week for a total of 7 hours. But admittedly probably won't increase practice time again until age 12. There's a meet a month, except for double-ups around December and March.

Yes, RMSC has its 10U swimmers in the water far far more than most (maybe all) of the Virginia NCAP sites.

What PP should’ve mentioned is that the required attendance is lower. They just opt to send their 10 year old 5x/week.

Opting out of practice is not a thing in my 10yo's group. Everyone is expected to be there nearly every time and pretty much everyone is unless there is illness or a major extenuating circumstance. So yes, the written requirements say one thing, but the culture of the group says another. Fortunately we're happy with the group, the coaches, and the people, so it doesn't bother us, but I could see how it could be a challenge under different circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:York does not have a 5 day per week option for 10&U. Maximum is 4 days.

as it should be. A 10 yr old should not be swimming 5 days a week. That is a recipe for very early burnout.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:York does not have a 5 day per week option for 10&U. Maximum is 4 days.

as it should be. A 10 yr old should not be swimming 5 days a week. That is a recipe for very early burnout.

Agree. Our NCAP site limits 10Us to 3 hours or less per week. 3 practices total for 3 hours total is the max. Period. Full stop. No exceptions, notwithstanding language on the site that suggests otherwise. (I think they haven’t updated the website in awhile.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm. My RMSC 10yo is in the water 5 days per week for a total of 7 hours. But admittedly probably won't increase practice time again until age 12. There's a meet a month, except for double-ups around December and March.

Yes, RMSC has its 10U swimmers in the water far far more than most (maybe all) of the Virginia NCAP sites.

What PP should’ve mentioned is that the required attendance is lower. They just opt to send their 10 year old 5x/week.

Opting out of practice is not a thing in my 10yo's group. Everyone is expected to be there nearly every time and pretty much everyone is unless there is illness or a major extenuating circumstance. So yes, the written requirements say one thing, but the culture of the group says another. Fortunately we're happy with the group, the coaches, and the people, so it doesn't bother us, but I could see how it could be a challenge under different circumstances.

What site

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:York does not have a 5 day per week option for 10&U. Maximum is 4 days.

as it should be. A 10 yr old should not be swimming 5 days a week. That is a recipe for very early burnout.

Agree. Our NCAP site limits 10Us to 3 hours or less per week. 3 practices total for 3 hours total is the max. Period. Full stop. No exceptions, notwithstanding language on the site that suggests otherwise. (I think they haven’t updated the website in awhile.)

Not an NCAP parent, but this is really smart. Is this site-specific or does all of NCAP do this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm. My RMSC 10yo is in the water 5 days per week for a total of 7 hours. But admittedly probably won't increase practice time again until age 12. There's a meet a month, except for double-ups around December and March.

Yes, RMSC has its 10U swimmers in the water far far more than most (maybe all) of the Virginia NCAP sites.

What PP should’ve mentioned is that the required attendance is lower. They just opt to send their 10 year old 5x/week.

Opting out of practice is not a thing in my 10yo's group. Everyone is expected to be there nearly every time and pretty much everyone is unless there is illness or a major extenuating circumstance. So yes, the written requirements say one thing, but the culture of the group says another. Fortunately we're happy with the group, the coaches, and the people, so it doesn't bother us, but I could see how it could be a challenge under different circumstances.

So to clarify, is “every time” 3x a week or 6x a week? Makes a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are at NCAP-Burke, and your child would have the same coaches the other “high achieving” coaches have until Gold I, which is the national team. All of the coaches are equally good and spread throughout the different practice groups. Also, NCAP-Burke is an automatic 1 year contract, which includes 4 days of long course during June-first week in August. Some kids don’t do LC, but the family pays regardless. Finally, our kids get a Burke Racquet and Swim Club membership with our dues. It’s not a super nice gym, but it does the trick for the older kids who want to work out. The 12Us can also go up and reserve a swim lane to practice turns, technique, etc.

NCAP-Burke may be an outlier because it is the only club that uses BRSC. For our swimmers, we were sold on NCAP-Burke because
— the practice times were at a reasonable time in the evening and not early in the morning unless the family wanted early in the morning (also, kids can combine, eg, one morning and two evenings if needed to do other activities at night),
— the coaches were the same regardless if the child is AAA or BB until Gold I (the practice groups are different depending on the level, but the coaches are spread out),
— they have a full year program with the same coaches in summer,
— they don’t push kids into swimming a lot of hours per week before age 11 (despite what others may think, NCAP-Burke’s high performing 10Us practice only 3 total hours per week, which is less than other clubs nearby, eg, Makos (over an hour per practice) and Machine (over an hour per practice and 4 days per week))
— It is 5 minutes from our house
— my kids can go to the same place at a very similar time
— my kids get to swim with other kids from school/neighborhood/summer league

Anonymous wrote:That's hard to believe

It’s true though. At NCAP-Burke, Bronze II (ages 9-12) practice M/W/F 5:30-6:30 pm or M/W/F 6:30-7:30 am. And only a very small handful (like 6-10 kids total) move to Bronze I (4-5 days/week, 1.25 hours each) at 11-12. The rest of the 9-12 year olds stay in M/W/F 3 hours/week until 13. And 8Us (Bronze III) are only allowed to swim T/Th 5:30-6:30 pm. No exceptions.

This really isn’t that much different than most of the other NCAP sites for the 10Us. My kid swam 3 days a week for 1 hour at age 9, and added a 4th day most weeks when they turned 10 (4 wasn’t required though). Some of the other sites do have options for the fast 11-12s to swim more though, and probably not coincidentally also have some very fast kids in that age group.

It’s surprising that people think NCAP swims their 10Us so many hours. We’ve found that our swimmers are in the water far less (3 hours/week) than other clubs. Maybe some NCAP sites require more?

In my experience, it is RMSC and York that encourage/require their top 10U swimmers to be in the water 4-5 days/week for 1.25-1.5 hours per practice. To that end, there is little surprise at how talented/fast the 10Us are from those programs. OCCS also has a 4 day option. That option isn’t even available for 10Us at several NCAP sites, as discussed above.

Machine has tremendous coaches and, all things being equal, I would have gone there if it worked for us. Machine offered a 4 day per week program to our swimmer, but we could not commit to that many days and hours at the time of day and location they were offering. So we went with NCAP. (Unrelated to this thread, but I wonder if the NCAP and other club swimmers who jump from 3 hours/week to 5-8 hours per week at age 11/12 make big improvements, especially since this occurs in conjunction with female puberty.)

All said, OP has a BB swimmer, so I would imagine there are practice groups even at these “more serious” clubs that allow less serious swimmers to go fewer days. It is a misnomer, however, to draw a blanket conclusion that the BB swimmers get less experienced/worse coaches than the A+ swimmers.

This is not true at my kids RMSC site. Most advanced juniors (top group option for ages 9-10, and also includes 11-12 yo) are in the water 3 or possibly 4 times a week and there aren’t more than 5 practices available to pick from.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:York does not have a 5 day per week option for 10&U. Maximum is 4 days.

as it should be. A 10 yr old should not be swimming 5 days a week. That is a recipe for very early burnout.

Agree. Our NCAP site limits 10Us to 3 hours or less per week. 3 practices total for 3 hours total is the max. Period. Full stop. No exceptions, notwithstanding language on the site that suggests otherwise. (I think they haven’t updated the website in awhile.)

Not an NCAP parent, but this is really smart. Is this site-specific or does all of NCAP do this?

Site specific. Marymount limits to 3 hrs/3 days. Tyson’s has a 4 day option for 10U

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:York does not have a 5 day per week option for 10&U. Maximum is 4 days.

as it should be. A 10 yr old should not be swimming 5 days a week. That is a recipe for very early burnout.

Agree. Our NCAP site limits 10Us to 3 hours or less per week. 3 practices total for 3 hours total is the max. Period. Full stop. No exceptions, notwithstanding language on the site that suggests otherwise. (I think they haven’t updated the website in awhile.)

Not an NCAP parent, but this is really smart. Is this site-specific or does all of NCAP do this?

Site specific. Marymount limits to 3 hrs/3 days. Tyson’s has a 4 day option for 10U

Burke limits to 3 hrs/3 days (web site suggests otherwise, but no 10Us are allowed to go more than 3 hrs).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:York does not have a 5 day per week option for 10&U. Maximum is 4 days.

as it should be. A 10 yr old should not be swimming 5 days a week. That is a recipe for very early burnout.

Agree. Our NCAP site limits 10Us to 3 hours or less per week. 3 practices total for 3 hours total is the max. Period. Full stop. No exceptions, notwithstanding language on the site that suggests otherwise. (I think they haven’t updated the website in awhile.)

Not an NCAP parent, but this is really smart. Is this site-specific or does all of NCAP do this?

Site specific. Marymount limits to 3 hrs/3 days. Tyson’s has a 4 day option for 10U

Burke limits to 3 hrs/3 days (web site suggests otherwise, but no 10Us are allowed to go more than 3 hrs).

Marymount and Burke have 1 hour practices, whereas other sites (NCAP and other clubs) have longer (1.25-1.5 or even 2 hour) practices, even if 10U swimmers only go 3 days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are at NCAP-Burke, and your child would have the same coaches the other “high achieving” coaches have until Gold I, which is the national team. All of the coaches are equally good and spread throughout the different practice groups. Also, NCAP-Burke is an automatic 1 year contract, which includes 4 days of long course during June-first week in August. Some kids don’t do LC, but the family pays regardless. Finally, our kids get a Burke Racquet and Swim Club membership with our dues. It’s not a super nice gym, but it does the trick for the older kids who want to work out. The 12Us can also go up and reserve a swim lane to practice turns, technique, etc.

NCAP-Burke may be an outlier because it is the only club that uses BRSC. For our swimmers, we were sold on NCAP-Burke because
— the practice times were at a reasonable time in the evening and not early in the morning unless the family wanted early in the morning (also, kids can combine, eg, one morning and two evenings if needed to do other activities at night),
— the coaches were the same regardless if the child is AAA or BB until Gold I (the practice groups are different depending on the level, but the coaches are spread out),
— they have a full year program with the same coaches in summer,
— they don’t push kids into swimming a lot of hours per week before age 11 (despite what others may think, NCAP-Burke’s high performing 10Us practice only 3 total hours per week, which is less than other clubs nearby, eg, Makos (over an hour per practice) and Machine (over an hour per practice and 4 days per week))
— It is 5 minutes from our house
— my kids can go to the same place at a very similar time
— my kids get to swim with other kids from school/neighborhood/summer league

Anonymous wrote:That's hard to believe

It’s true though. At NCAP-Burke, Bronze II (ages 9-12) practice M/W/F 5:30-6:30 pm or M/W/F 6:30-7:30 am. And only a very small handful (like 6-10 kids total) move to Bronze I (4-5 days/week, 1.25 hours each) at 11-12. The rest of the 9-12 year olds stay in M/W/F 3 hours/week until 13. And 8Us (Bronze III) are only allowed to swim T/Th 5:30-6:30 pm. No exceptions.

This really isn’t that much different than most of the other NCAP sites for the 10Us. My kid swam 3 days a week for 1 hour at age 9, and added a 4th day most weeks when they turned 10 (4 wasn’t required though). Some of the other sites do have options for the fast 11-12s to swim more though, and probably not coincidentally also have some very fast kids in that age group.

It’s surprising that people think NCAP swims their 10Us so many hours. We’ve found that our swimmers are in the water far less (3 hours/week) than other clubs. Maybe some NCAP sites require more?

In my experience, it is RMSC and York that encourage/require their top 10U swimmers to be in the water 4-5 days/week for 1.25-1.5 hours per practice. To that end, there is little surprise at how talented/fast the 10Us are from those programs. OCCS also has a 4 day option. That option isn’t even available for 10Us at several NCAP sites, as discussed above.

Machine has tremendous coaches and, all things being equal, I would have gone there if it worked for us. Machine offered a 4 day per week program to our swimmer, but we could not commit to that many days and hours at the time of day and location they were offering. So we went with NCAP. (Unrelated to this thread, but I wonder if the NCAP and other club swimmers who jump from 3 hours/week to 5-8 hours per week at age 11/12 make big improvements, especially since this occurs in conjunction with female puberty.)

All said, OP has a BB swimmer, so I would imagine there are practice groups even at these “more serious” clubs that allow less serious swimmers to go fewer days. It is a misnomer, however, to draw a blanket conclusion that the BB swimmers get less experienced/worse coaches than the A+ swimmers.

This is not true at my kids RMSC site. Most advanced juniors (top group option for ages 9-10, and also includes 11-12 yo) are in the water 3 or possibly 4 times a week and there aren’t more than 5 practices available to pick from.

But the RMSC kids tend to have longer practices, so hours-wise, they are in the water 2+ more hours/week than places like NCAP-MM and NCAP-B.

[Anonymous]

All the top 10&Us (AAA and AAAA in most events) around us practice at least 4-5 days a week, 8-12 hours. This is true for friends from top clubs in west coast as well. Could see a natural breaststroker to achieve AAAA with less practice time but it definitely takes more than 3 hours a week in the water to swim a 5:50 500free.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All the top 10&Us (AAA and AAAA in most events) around us practice at least 4-5 days a week, 8-12 hours. This is true for friends from top clubs in west coast as well. Could see a natural breaststroker to achieve AAAA with less practice time but it definitely takes more than 3 hours a week in the water to swim a 5:50 500free.

This is false. Why do you peddle this BS?

Per swimcloud ratings, 4 of the top 8 10&U girls in PVS swim with York or Makos. York offers a max of 4 days, 6.5 hours per week. Makos offers a max of 4 days, 5.5 hours per week.

That includes optional Saturday add-ons that not all of these kids participate in.

Just because you think it’s impossible doesn’t make it so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All the top 10&Us (AAA and AAAA in most events) around us practice at least 4-5 days a week, 8-12 hours. This is true for friends from top clubs in west coast as well. Could see a natural breaststroker to achieve AAAA with less practice time but it definitely takes more than 3 hours a week in the water to swim a 5:50 500free.

Ok troll 🙄 You’ve posted some variation of this multiple times. Although now you’re up to 12 hours a week for 10 Us, which is even more ridiculous. There is no club running 2+ hour practices for little kids. My 12 year old with AAAA and AAA times in the majority of events can’t practice 12 hours a week, it’s not possible even with 6 practices offered a week because none of the practices are 2 hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is why we did PAC.
Practices at Fairland. They were in the lanes next to Machine kids for 1/4 of the price.
Plus PAC charges monthly not yearly so if your kid wants to stop swimming you’re not out the whole years fee.

Same! My kids are doing winter swim for the first time this year after 4 years of summer swim and we decided to go with PAC for multiple reasons. 100% you're not getting the same level of coaching (intensity, direct instruction, etc) as the Machines and NCAPs of the world. But it's a small squad, nice coaches, low pressure environment, fun, and CHEEEEAAAAPPP! If you're in the Fairland or UMD area and have a kid that is B/BB or lower, I think it's worth consideration.

Payment is month to month, so as the previous poster said, you could drop at any time. Or you can take a month off for an injury or a couple months off for basketball season or whatever, and come back later. They are very adamant about understanding kids have other commitments besides swimming, including homework, but also other sports. Kids in PAC aren't heading to the Olympics, but they'll get stronger and hopefully enjoy it along the way.

My 11 year old is scheduled for 3 days a week but often goes 2 and no one cares. But she's gotten decently faster since September and is excited for summer swim time trials to see her time drops.